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post #121 of 503
sorry if it has been asked, but are there pictures of the Kana available?
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post #122 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimrom View Post
I think the sensor stuff we have done with Sensei is amazing and groundbreaking, I haven't seen anyone here even comment on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimrom View Post
ExactAim, ExactAccel, ExactRate, FreeMove and so on.
So you admit these are not working in Xai as they should? I tried different settings, eg FreeMove and ExactAim set to 1 and 10 are the same (I don't see any difference). Sensor has 90 CPI step so ExactSens isn't that exact. ExactRate - chaotic readings with any polling rate testing software it may be working fine but seriously standard 125/250/500/1000 Hz steps are enough for everyone. Sometimes (rarely) the mouse is losing all custom profiles and reverting to stock settings. Sometimes after logging to another Windows account the mouse stops working until replugged. Windows XP is loading ~12-14 seconds longer with Xai connected.

I could live with that but the sensor is extremely sensitive to dust, sensitivity changes randomly when something gets to sensor. The scroll wheel has "a gap" in one position, you can roll it 1 step forward and backward and nothing happens until turned a bit further (1/3 of step i think), sometimes it wouldn't register first time due to it and the next step it registers twice. The last thing is I'm soft mousepad fan, with low sens you can see some negative acceleration even with not so fast moves. Other than that it's solid built mouse with great feel (good materials used, I prefer thin rubber cord though), but for the price I expected no issues.
post #123 of 503
Man I'm a bit disappointed at how kimrom responded to be perfectly honest.

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post #124 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glymbol View Post
So you admit these are not working in Xai as they should? I tried different settings, eg FreeMove and ExactAim set to 1 and 10 are the same (I don't see any difference).

The scroll wheel has "a gap" in one position, you can roll it 1 step forward and backward and nothing happens until turned a bit further (1/3 of step i think), sometimes it wouldn't register first time due to it and the next step it registers twice. The last thing is I'm soft mousepad fan, with low sens you can see some negative acceleration even with not so fast moves. Other than that it's solid built mouse with great feel.
I have noticed the same. Scrollwheel is totally unreliable, altough I won't really use it for gaming, scrolling webpages makes it jitter up and down. Only exactrate and sense(using 540cpi) seems to be working(I suspect others are just glued to "off/0" value). Keeping exactrate at 500Hz, because at 1000 it goes all jittery, even on hard surface.

Also left/righthand setup is stopping macros to work on other setup. Easy to fix it by just manually swapping buttons, rather than push that left/righthand button.

I have v1.4.8 Xai.

Hope these won't be the issue with Kana or Kinzu v2.
Edited by fasti - 9/19/11 at 3:13am
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post #125 of 503
Kimrom - you sound a little disappointed that the Sensei wasn't made more a fuss of here. I don't think anyone denies it's a beautiful piece of kit (though haven't tried it so I couldn't comment on how well it actually works). However I suspect that people here (myself included) know what they like, and would rather buy a device that only does what we want and doesn't spend its life in 1 of it's zillion settings, which seems a bit of a waste for the money. I was nearly taken in by the Sensei, but veered at the last minute due to it's sensor acceleration issues. I'm glad I didn't now, because I'm not convinced I would have liked it.

My requirements are zero acceleration, zero prediction, high malfunction & pc speed, small-med claw-able chassis and good buttons that can take a whack and last (smooth, braided cord for bonus points!). That's it. Any other bells and whistles are wasted on me. I suspect this is true for the rest of this particular non-audience of yours ;-)

Rest assured, however, that those of us that have an inkling of how business works understand your constraints. We're just a little disappointed that it doesn't work for us (which is both expected and understandable).

In the meantime, I'll be heading back in time and using a WMO as my weapon of choice. Just waiting for my QCK ;-)
post #126 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glymbol View Post
FreeMove and ExactAim set to 1 and 10 are the same (I don't see any difference).

The last thing is I'm soft mousepad fan, with low sens you can see some negative acceleration even with not so fast moves
I also noticed same things...
post #127 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glymbol View Post
So you admit these are not working in Xai as they should? I tried different settings, eg FreeMove and ExactAim set to 1 and 10 are the same (I don't see any difference). Sensor has 90 CPI step so ExactSens isn't that exact. ExactRate - chaotic readings with any polling rate testing software it may be working fine but seriously standard 125/250/500/1000 Hz steps are enough for everyone. Sometimes (rarely) the mouse is losing all custom profiles and reverting to stock settings. Sometimes after logging to another Windows account the mouse stops working until replugged. Windows XP is loading ~12-14 seconds longer with Xai connected.

I could live with that but the sensor is extremely sensitive to dust, sensitivity changes randomly when something gets to sensor. The scroll wheel has "a gap" in one position, you can roll it 1 step forward and backward and nothing happens until turned a bit further (1/3 of step i think), sometimes it wouldn't register first time due to it and the next step it registers twice. The last thing is I'm soft mousepad fan, with low sens you can see some negative acceleration even with not so fast moves. Other than that it's solid built mouse with great feel (good materials used, I prefer thin rubber cord though), but for the price I expected no issues.
I had the same exact problems with xai. And I'm still using cause of its build quality (except for scroll wheel obviously), which is top notch. My first xai died after a few months, and the second one was displaying the same problems from the start with the scroll wheel ("a gap"). Only with this one LCD display on the bottom has low brightness, no matter how much I increase it in driver software. Also, my boot was prolonged not by ~12-14 seconds, but by ~120 seconds, which is unacceptable.

I would gladly change to Sensei if those problems with scroll wheel, exactstuff, dust sensitivity and longer boot are fixed. I know there's not much they can do with the ADNS 9500 acceleration, and I don't mind it as much as I mind the problems mentioned above.
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post #128 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glymbol View Post
So you admit these are not working in Xai as they should? I tried different settings, eg FreeMove and ExactAim set to 1 and 10 are the same (I don't see any difference). Sensor has 90 CPI step so ExactSens isn't that exact. ExactRate - chaotic readings with any polling rate testing software it may be working fine but seriously standard 125/250/500/1000 Hz steps are enough for everyone. Sometimes (rarely) the mouse is losing all custom profiles and reverting to stock settings. Sometimes after logging to another Windows account the mouse stops working until replugged. Windows XP is loading ~12-14 seconds longer with Xai connected.

I could live with that but the sensor is extremely sensitive to dust, sensitivity changes randomly when something gets to sensor. The scroll wheel has "a gap" in one position, you can roll it 1 step forward and backward and nothing happens until turned a bit further (1/3 of step i think), sometimes it wouldn't register first time due to it and the next step it registers twice. The last thing is I'm soft mousepad fan, with low sens you can see some negative acceleration even with not so fast moves. Other than that it's solid built mouse with great feel (good materials used, I prefer thin rubber cord though), but for the price I expected no issues.
If your mouse wheel still has a problem, RMA it. My first Xai had that dead area you are speaking of and I RMA'd it and got a Xai with a completely fully functioning scroll wheel.
post #129 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaingosu View Post
How can you say that? I actually have some knowledge on this kind of things (im 29 years old and i have a marketing degree) and obviously you and every other company tries to cover the whole market with products ranging from cheaper to more expensive mice. In order to do that you have to cut the production cost of the item (quality and feature wise).
I am 36 years old, I barely finished elementary school. I am just a nerd who really likes gaming.

We don't try to cover "the whole market" with our products. If we did our product portfolio would be very different, there would be a lot more products, our marketing/branding strategy would be different. I have told you above how we view our products, and shed some light on how we think and what we consider during product development. I am being very honest and open here, I am wondering why you find that so hard to believe. And I can again say that we don't make any products "less" to make other products "more". We don't intentionally remove features or worsen our products, if we from a price perspective can choose not to do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaingosu View Post
This is why the Xai RUSE (which i actually own) is priced EXACTLY like the normal version? I don't know what you're trying to prove but as i said ... these things are a matter of personal taste. This is why markeloff switched from the black one to RUSE. The glossy plastic has a better grip imo.
I am not following. If you are making a point about preference and personal taste, I completely agree: a mouse is by far the peripheral most subject to personal preference. But I still don't understand your point.

I was talking about black plastic on the sides of a product, which is easier and cheaper to make. I was not comparing a black Xai with rubberized coating to a white Xai with a color print (and a royalty fee payment to a games publisher). I fail to see how that is relevant to what I was talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaingosu View Post
Ignorance is bliss right? WRONG! 99% of the gamers don't care because they don't know. But we are talking about quality here so show me one guy who knows microswitches and thinks that TTCs are better than OMRONs.
I didn't say it didn't matter. I told you, very honestly and openly, it is price point decision. And after that I said that we have received zero negative feedback from the players we have testing the mouse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaingosu View Post
You must think im here to bash Steelseries. It's not the case. Im not perceiving anything and you agreed with me about the switches when you used omrons in Red Kinzu and priced it higher than the regular version. I mean you had the White Kinzu with TTC AND glossy coating, so why an omron version? Obviously because the omrons are rated higher and some ppl required that.
No, I don't think that. And yes, there was a request from a large customer, in one specific area of the world, to do a "pro" version of Kinzu so we did that. It sold just okay. With little to almost no demand from the rest of the world, so little demand that we didn't even launch it in a number of regions.

Should I choose between a double braided cord and TTC/Omron switches right now, I would go with the cord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaingosu View Post
THAT was my only problem, not the quality of the Kana. Surely im not the only one thinking that using cheaper switches for a 45 pounds mouse is unacceptable (especially when similar priced products from other companies use the best in the field). Most likely the price on Amazon will drop according to Steelseries price.

Once again im not attacking SS products. People on this forum have advanced knowledge on microswitches, sensors, quality of a product and know exactly what they want. I've seen ppl here making one mouse out of two (KinzuAdder) just because they can't find the perfect product available on the market. You should see these post for what they are ... the opinions of your buyers. Just because i was the one starting this conversation doesn't mean i'm the only one thinking that way. Alot of guys agreed about the switches so stop trying to make it seem like im paranoid or something. You think we like spending money on mice with flaws? We just want a mouse as close to perfection as possible (if such a thing even exists) and Steelseries trying to hear our opinions is the best way to reach that goal. You came so close with Kinzu and even closer with the Xai, now the only thing missing is a flawless sensor in those mice.
And, I repeatedly said that you and you guys - meaning visitors to this forum - are not the market. That has nothing to do with calling you paranoid or anything to that effect. You are on a hardware forum. Visited by hardware enthusiasts. If I wasn't clear on what I was saying, apologies, but with this clarification, go back and re-read what I wrote. You are not representing the general market in your request, you are not representing the players we normally test our products with. This is not an insult, this is a fact. I have presented our mice products to some 300+ journalists who write about hardware, all over the world. I have been asked about switches by a total of 4 or 5 persons (all of them China, Japan or Taiwan).

Now, one of the reasons I am here, is because I would love to change this. I would love to make our products better. Listening to you (you, as in everyone here) and understanding your viewpoints, will only help me understand that and allow me to create those better products. Have recommendations for a flawless sensor? I am all ears. Have recommendations for switches? I am all ears. But please don't attack me or accuse me of lying, I am being open and honest.

Heck. I am even giving mice to community selected members of this forum, to give you guys a knowledgeable and unbiased sources for your information. I think I have demonstrated best practice and best intentions here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaingosu View Post
True! I was gonna mention that, but i was afraid kimrom will tell me 99% of the gamers don't care about that . Ah well ... one more shot available (Kana).
I am sorry we have different viewpoints, and you can keep taking stabs at me, but I haven't seen any reviews or heard any negative comments on the sensor on Xai - except from a very small minority. The Xai was the first laser sensor that my sponsored pro players gave the thumbs up. And the only laser sensor that is consistently winning tournaments, afaik.

That is why we went with it again. Not because we are evil, not because we don't care, but because its the best laser sensor we see on the market. Have recommendations? I am all ears. I am always all ears. We all are. We want nothing more than to build awesome stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glymbol View Post
So you admit these are not working in Xai as they should? I tried different settings, eg FreeMove and ExactAim set to 1 and 10 are the same (I don't see any difference). Sensor has 90 CPI step so ExactSens isn't that exact. ExactRate - chaotic readings with any polling rate testing software it may be working fine but seriously standard 125/250/500/1000 Hz steps are enough for everyone. Sometimes (rarely) the mouse is losing all custom profiles and reverting to stock settings. Sometimes after logging to another Windows account the mouse stops working until replugged. Windows XP is loading ~12-14 seconds longer with Xai connected.

I could live with that but the sensor is extremely sensitive to dust, sensitivity changes randomly when something gets to sensor. The scroll wheel has "a gap" in one position, you can roll it 1 step forward and backward and nothing happens until turned a bit further (1/3 of step i think), sometimes it wouldn't register first time due to it and the next step it registers twice. The last thing is I'm soft mousepad fan, with low sens you can see some negative acceleration even with not so fast moves. Other than that it's solid built mouse with great feel (good materials used, I prefer thin rubber cord though), but for the price I expected no issues.
No, I can't speak to many of the things you mention. I know about the loading issue, we have been working with both OEMs and Intel people to solve that, very frustrating issue.

I am surprised to see the number of scroll wheel issues that popped up in this thread, I will have to look that up tomorrow in our support system to see total numbers and batch numbers of those returns. I have seen mentions about wheels with erratic behavior, but never as many as I am quantitatively seeing here. It's not a subject I was aware of until just now. Meh.

Please remember that you have at least 1 year warranty on your products and 14 day money back guarantees when you buy from us. I feel awful for anyone having problems with a defective product, so by all means if you are covered you should RMA it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixxxxxx View Post
If your mouse wheel still has a problem, RMA it. My first Xai had that dead area you are speaking of and I RMA'd it and got a Xai with a completely fully functioning scroll wheel.
What he said.
post #130 of 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffstah View Post
Kimrom - you sound a little disappointed that the Sensei wasn't made more a fuss of here. I don't think anyone denies it's a beautiful piece of kit (though haven't tried it so I couldn't comment on how well it actually works). However I suspect that people here (myself included) know what they like, and would rather buy a device that only does what we want and doesn't spend its life in 1 of it's zillion settings, which seems a bit of a waste for the money. I was nearly taken in by the Sensei, but veered at the last minute due to it's sensor acceleration issues. I'm glad I didn't now, because I'm not convinced I would have liked it.

My requirements are zero acceleration, zero prediction, high malfunction & pc speed, small-med claw-able chassis and good buttons that can take a whack and last (smooth, braided cord for bonus points!). That's it. Any other bells and whistles are wasted on me. I suspect this is true for the rest of this particular non-audience of yours ;-)

Rest assured, however, that those of us that have an inkling of how business works understand your constraints. We're just a little disappointed that it doesn't work for us (which is both expected and understandable).

In the meantime, I'll be heading back in time and using a WMO as my weapon of choice. Just waiting for my QCK ;-)
No, not at all disappointed. Literally just observing. I don't think there is a right or wrong in product design (but I get immensely frustrated and piss when our stuff doesn't work). What you like, may not be what I like. I am here because I would love to understand you (and everyone elses) viewpoint, as it would bring a lot to what we already do and strive for.

I am here as a private person, not as a dude from a company. No one could pay me enough money to sit here and answer this at 9PM. I find your viewpoints very enlightening and I love talking to people who have tried my stuff and have opinions it. I manage the company twitter account myself for that very reason, I don't like not feeling close to our products, customers or the problems that are out there.
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