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[Official] DotA 2 Information and Discussion Thread. - Page 1402

post #14011 of 17124
Quote:
Originally Posted by connectwise View Post

A lot of great content lately:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
and last hitting under t1

And now in DAC Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Ehome is coming back from rax down against BG burning's morphling with bloodcyka. I don't know who yang is, whether its mushi zyf or ohiyo, but he's just wrecking face with ember after several high ground t3 defenses.

These two clips are very good! Last hitting under T1 just became ez.
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post #14012 of 17124
Quote:
Originally Posted by RlndVt View Post

These two clips are very good! Last hitting under T1 just became ez.

I give up.. I gave all this info, plus more. QQ
post #14013 of 17124
The last hitting video does not show the support randomly hitting creeps for the tower to CS! hahahah
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post #14014 of 17124
like i said before, both are low on list of supports i want to see. a mirana is useless for a large part of the game. sitting mid and hoping to hit arrows or hoping to hit offlane leaves too much to chance. and mirana is one of my mostplayed, and i have a pretty high winrate on her with above a 3kda, mostly played as a support, and long before it was a regular thing in pubs. i can see the case for it offlane, where at least you can get some farm early and contest runes.
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post #14015 of 17124
There are so much content recently. Blitz did a storm spirit video that was very good, and RTZ on stream's talking about all the drama regarding player movements. Pretty interesting times in dota esports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisLam View Post

EF : what's wrong with 5th mirana? if the 4th position is a stun (e.g. Ogre, bane), you can net so many kills with smoke roam alone. All you need is arrow and leap, dont even need the star nuke thingy.

I really want to try supporting with her now that I have received some cosmetics of her from bets and stuff, but it's not easy in random pubs to find another support that happen to pick a stun and is also willing to run around with you
all heros you mentioned (except doom, who also fails as a support) are 10x easier to kill than morph. support morph can't deal auto-damage if you want the long stun but he also can't be killed with like 800-1000 hp very early. It matters less for morph because his range is so short as a support anyway

A stun that pushes units back can be bad if you are in line with your team, but what if you wave form to the front of your enemy so that your target becomes sandwiched by you and your team at the back? All I'm saying, the push-back ability can be used to your advantage (although it could be a bit hard to maneuver early)

I suppose he is like the alchemist kind of support. Can transition into semi-carry late game. But I like alchemist as a support a lot more due to skill set.

I've already acknowledge regarding lanening phase survivability. I was talking about mid to late game. By that time supports either have force staff, euls, or ghost sceptre, or shadow amulet. Besides that, in group fights, survivablity is determined by the lock downs and bursts. And in those engagements, all other supports win out or are on equal footing in terms of survivability, but greatly wins out in terms of team utility or damage.

We all know there are no bad heroes in this game. But there are just better ones than morph support. And I prefer doom support much more than morph support.
post #14016 of 17124
Quote:
Originally Posted by connectwise View Post

I've already acknowledge regarding lanening phase survivability. I was talking about mid to late game. By that time supports either have force staff, euls, or ghost sceptre, or shadow amulet. Besides that, in group fights, survivablity is determined by the lock downs and bursts. And in those engagements, all other supports win out or are on equal footing in terms of survivability, but greatly wins out in terms of team utility or damage.

We all know there are no bad heroes in this game. But there are just better ones than morph support. And I prefer doom support much more than morph support.

I don't understand. Even in late game, how do "other supports win out or are on equal footing" with morph in terms of survivability? Other supports have force staff, euls and / or ghost scepter. Why can't morph have these items? He has 1 standard nuke, has a 2-4 sec stun (lets just say it doesn't deal damage) and is in general pretty hard to kill. He also farms slightly faster than most supports when left alone.

Morph's ultimate is about self-survivability and not about damage or teamfights (could be used as a damage source but rarely effective), I will give you that one. As I've said before, I agreed he is not a good support for various reasons (no teamfight ult being one of them), but definitely not as bad as you make it out to be. In another words, I generally wouldn't prefer to have a morphling as support, but I can see how he can work out in theory, and definitely works 3 times better than a doom.

What does doom have to offer in terms of support? Real supports are here to put wards, harass and possibility lay down disables to set up kills for the team. You must leave devour at lv 1, scourage earth at lv 1 or at most 2, and max level death because that's the only possible build to do anything for the team early. Even then, all you can do is net at lv1 (if lucky), and at lv 4, net + level death (lv 2, multiplier = 5) when your target is lv5. You can do a bit more after lv6 with doom and a better level death multiplier, but lv6 without any contribution is a lot to ask for as a support.

You aren't here to eat creeps for money, you are here to eat creeps so that you can cast net and then level death on enemies which takes away 75% of your mana. Every spell of this hero is so selfish that he is almost the opposite definition of support, and the mana pool size only emphasizes this point.

In all honesty, I think position 3 is about as low as he can go. Nothing personal here, but if you have any games where you play doom as support and were successful in contributing to the team (provided your team isn't owning like 12-2), please at least describe how you pull that off. I genuinely don't believe that it is possible on a regular basis.
Edited by HarrisLam - 1/15/15 at 12:06am
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post #14017 of 17124
Yeah, that's the whole point, they will have the same items, and mid/late game fights only last few seconds. Hence survivability is the same. Other supports win out on the ability to disable, to initiate, group utility, or plain burst damage.

I never said it was bad, I just others were better. I can't see how a support doom would lose out to a support morphling. You don't have to skill the things you said. W/e the case is, compared a morphling with just a stun, wave nuke and escape mecahnism, it's definitely more useful. Late game alpha wolf aura alone would boost it above morph support utility. You don't have to lvl up lvl dead at all until lvl 5, then at lvl 6 that's already a kill with net, doom + lvl death. If it's a ganking initiator, usually it's a soul ring, but if it's farm late game oriented, a bottle would give it enough mana. That with arcane boots and mek, it's insanely good support compared to morph. Nothing beats doom, unless it's necrophoes scythe or aghs disruptor.
post #14018 of 17124
Quote:
Originally Posted by connectwise View Post

Yeah, that's the whole point, they will have the same items, and mid/late game fights only last few seconds. Hence survivability is the same. Other supports win out on the ability to disable, to initiate, group utility, or plain burst damage.

I never said it was bad, I just others were better. I can't see how a support doom would lose out to a support morphling. You don't have to skill the things you said. W/e the case is, compared a morphling with just a stun, wave nuke and escape mecahnism, it's definitely more useful. Late game alpha wolf aura alone would boost it above morph support utility. You don't have to lvl up lvl dead at all until lvl 5, then at lvl 6 that's already a kill with net, doom + lvl death. If it's a ganking initiator, usually it's a soul ring, but if it's farm late game oriented, a bottle would give it enough mana. That with arcane boots and mek, it's insanely good support compared to morph. Nothing beats doom, unless it's necrophoes scythe or aghs disruptor.

Bold 1 : No. How long a fight last has very little to do with survivability as a support. In fact, due to how much burst damage teams can dish out in late game, it could have been the very reason why morph survives better than those supports in the first place, because besides the usual force staff / cyclone, you can waveform (invulnerable) and / or jump to image, not to mention morph's potentially huge HP pool (if you want the stun, you would naturally keep your STR count high). Where most supports die in 2 seconds, morph can last 4 seconds and could have bounced away

Bold 2 : You are support doom, when you are lv6, most other heros won't be lv6 (definitely not their mid and carries). If your team is playing good, wait around for 1-2 minutes and you might catch their support with your lv 1 lvl death with multi-6. But if your team is playing bad.......I highly doubt you can reach lv 5 before the important heros on the other side reach lv7. Even if you do, you better start ganking at lv5 because you dont have much of a choice before you miss your multiplier timing. The safest build is to at least have multiplier=5 at lv 3

And that is only talking about what you can do at lv6, with all 3 of net, doom and lvl death in your arsenal. What exactly do you plan to do before lv 6? Supports don't get much farm and are naturally at a lower level because they want the carry to get the most out of the lanes, but be harassing enemies out of the lane also for the carry's best interest. Doom can't do that....he also has no nuke and no stun....Doom can't do anything support-related before lv 5....


Did you say doom with bottle + arcane boots + mek on doom is better than morph support? That's the problem though...morph does not need that much mana help from items....Doom's mana pool is just awful. You cannot burst all your spells(devour spell included) even once with the natural mana pool, probably even worse if you had been casting devour. That's just bad.
Edited by HarrisLam - 1/15/15 at 7:17am
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post #14019 of 17124
Guys , pls stop with the textwalls -_-

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1163262483

Doing hardlane vs Troll and Treant , this game was easy as f....
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post #14020 of 17124
In regards to support Morphling:

I think most people underestimate his stun on a 10 sec cooldown, 4.25 friggin' seconds is huge.

Sure morph has less teamfight utilities compared to other popular supports but he can disable someone for 4.25 second at the start of a teamfight and along with his survivability, you can expect to land another one 10 sec later.

Also he transitions quite well into lategame, has a waveclear with great escape Tools.
Not too shabby of a hero kit I would say.


He's seeing a lot of love in the chinese meta and seeing how cutthroat they are, I doubt they would pick him if he was as weak as people make it out to be.
(Not implying to blindly follow any meta.)

Compared to another popular support, Vengeful spirit, you can not shoehorn him in any line up and call it a day, but he's definitely strong when drafted correctly.
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