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[Official] DotA 2 Information and Discussion Thread. - Page 323

post #3221 of 17117
https://dotabuff.com/matches/97211477
ZSMJ 2 Divines !
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Erin
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post #3222 of 17117
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepheroth003 View Post

Haha hey Harris, did you drop SC2 in favor of Dota2 or play both?

So you think the creep mechanic is mostly for defensive style play, or late game play as SC2 players would call it? I guess that would make sense, but then I just don't understand how to push without experience/items.

Anyone want to play sometime? Show me around a little? I have a vent server or can come to one obviously. Unfortunately I wont be able to play tonight, kids going to in laws house so I can go on a date with my wife. lol
ya man.....SC2 games are about half as long as a dota game so that should have been better, however it's about 3 times as demanding in brain cells. Kinda switched to dota 2 for this factor, cuz I play games to relax. War 3 dota was also something I enjoyed for years. Almost my entire college years and then some

Will definitely go back some day though. Will buy HotS

Anyway, by creep mechanic, what exactly do you mean? Like, which part? The last hitting? The continuous hitting for push? Or both when the time is right(which is basically the entire concept)?

IMO the mechanic is about as good as it can get. My guess would be that last hitting was possibly an afterthought. Maybe some players went "hey I always push the front line to the opposite tower and bear the risk of ganks and tower hits, maybe I should hit the creeps less, but then I want the money....." Then the idea popped up.

and denying is totally BBQ sauce on the ribs. Let's think about it, what if creep denying does not exist? Imagine a solo lane with a ranged hero on each side. You last hit your creeps and I last hit my creeps. If we are on about the same skill level, our creep kills are gonna be very similar, if not exactly the same.

Where's the fun in that?

Denying adds one more layer to laning mechanic and doubles the complications. If I was only good enough to out-play you as 20 creep kills against your 17 creep kills in 10 minutes without denies, I will probably be 16-8 against your 10-5 with denies, it widens the skill curve by quite a bit.

I believe that last hitting is a "defensive move", and denying is an "aggressive move". While last hitting might sound passive and boring, you must consider the fact that MOBA games are essentially "counterstrike the RPG", and we all know how RPGs are played out : every character grows during the course of the game, and before you grow strong enough to fight at least the minions are the low end of the curve, stay out of trouble.

Denying is just straight up an aggressive move. What's better than earning all that creep gold? Earning all that creep gold while witnessing your enemy not getting any!! Seriously, do I need to say more?


Last hit / push when the time is right, I guess. As I just mentioned, due to the fact that most heros can't face the fist of multiple creeps in the early game, pushing is usually a thing for the mid game and late game. Before that, people try whatever they can to grow strong. But as I said, if team consist of more than 1 pusher heros, fast pushing for 1-2 towers for that 200/person tower gold is a big advantage too, setting up a good start for the entire team might just win you the game right there.

As for how you can "push without items / levels", you probably misunderstood. As the support, all you need to do in the push is to "show up", as Day9 always says. As the support, you probably has a stun, or a heal, or an aura that benefits teammates / hurt enemies. Your presence alone is your contribution, as the enemy team will have to consider your presence when they go in for the team fight. When you do a 4~5-man push, the auto attack translates into a lot of damage even if your levels are low



I once said watching SC2 pro matches on the TV is as enjoyable as watching matches of your favorite sport on it. Recently I've found that watching dota 2 pro matches to be just as good. It just frustrates the hell out of you in how you can fail so miserably while you are seemingly copying what the pros were doing biggrin.gif
Edited by HarrisLam - 1/11/13 at 8:10am
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post #3223 of 17117
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisLam View Post

Anyway, by creep mechanic, what exactly do you mean? Like, which part? The last hitting? The continuous hitting for push? Or both when the time is right(which is basically the entire concept)?
I've watched a lot of beginner guides and read about this game, it's not like i didn't try to understand the game. All these guides basically made it sound like you would never continuous hit. That was my understanding anyways and it makes sense because if you continuous hit, you rarely get the money for last hit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisLam View Post

Denying adds one more layer to laning mechanic and doubles the complications. If I was only good enough to out-play you as 20 creep kills against your 17 creep kills in 10 minutes without denies, I will probably be 16-8 against your 10-5 with denies, it widens the skill curve by quite a bit.
Well your exactly correct, last hit without denying would be a moot point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisLam View Post

every character grows during the course of the game, and before you grow strong enough to fight at least the minions are the low end of the curve, stay out of trouble.
So how exactly does a pusher or support character work without gaining these levels? Their spells just allow them to do this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisLam View Post

pushing is usually a thing for the mid game and late game. Before that, people try whatever they can to grow strong.
So my post where I said this game was heavily based on last hitting/denying is still somewhat accurate. Yes there are other things you can do but the general strategy is that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisLam View Post

As the support, all you need to do in the push is to "show up", as Day9 always says. As the support, you probably has a stun, or a heal, or an aura that benefits teammates / hurt enemies. Your presence alone is your contribution, as the enemy team will have to consider your presence when they go in for the team fight. When you do a 4~5-man push, the auto attack translates into a lot of damage even if your levels are low
Would you say the community is generally good enough that I can jump in and support people? Will I get yelled at if I don't know what they are doing, don't stun at the right time or something like that? Maybe I just pick a buff/unbuff class to start and get some experience on how the game works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisLam View Post

I once said watching SC2 pro matches on the TV is as enjoyable as watching matches of your favorite sport on it. Recently I've found that watching dota 2 pro matches to be just as good. It just frustrates the hell out of you in how you can fail so miserably while you are seemingly copying what the pros were doing biggrin.gif
I haven't played SC2 since I was in Afghanistan when I talked to you guys all the time. I still watch casts from HD and Force on youtube probably 3 or 4 a week. Ill try to watch a Dota 2 one, just not sure if I will understand whats going on. I watched a top 10 fails and didn't really understand half of them lol.
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post #3224 of 17117
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepheroth003 View Post

I've watched a lot of beginner guides and read about this game, it's not like i didn't try to understand the game. All these guides basically made it sound like you would never continuous hit. That was my understanding anyways and it makes sense because if you continuous hit, you rarely get the money for last hit.
Well your exactly correct, last hit without denying would be a moot point.
So how exactly does a pusher or support character work without gaining these levels? Their spells just allow them to do this?
So my post where I said this game was heavily based on last hitting/denying is still somewhat accurate. Yes there are other things you can do but the general strategy is that.
Would you say the community is generally good enough that I can jump in and support people? Will I get yelled at if I don't know what they are doing, don't stun at the right time or something like that? Maybe I just pick a buff/unbuff class to start and get some experience on how the game works.
I haven't played SC2 since I was in Afghanistan when I talked to you guys all the time. I still watch casts from HD and Force on youtube probably 3 or 4 a week. Ill try to watch a Dota 2 one, just not sure if I will understand whats going on. I watched a top 10 fails and didn't really understand half of them lol.

Find a hero you like,and find a first person perspective of Purge (though at times he will use very unconvential/stupid builds, but he will usually mention it) or a pro player (not necessarily a VOD/cast, since it's the caster who is controlling what you see on the screen). The reason being you can see their clicks and how they are interacting in the game. You can see supports that don't last hit but maybe harass or pull or drop wards or gank. I think lion and lich are good starting support heroes. You can still contribute to a teamfight even if you're lower leveled, have gank/harass potential.

That said, in lower level games, people might talk trash to you for having a bad score even though you're a support (since they might not understand roles). There have been a TON of dota invites going out on OCN, and what I suggest is finding out who else is new tot he game and maybe playing with them against bots, and ideally one semi-experienced or experienced player who can tell you what you're doing (wrong). Then you get the teamplay mechanics as well as the gameplay. The good thing about dota when compared to SC is you don't have to play constantly to maintain your level of play, for the most part. The frustrating thing is if one teammate is bad, it can cost you the game.
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post #3225 of 17117
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepheroth003 View Post

Cool thanks. That sparked me to check the original thread in this topic and Zulli has done a great job putting up some resources. I'll look into them.

Why thank you. smile.gif
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post #3226 of 17117
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepheroth003 View Post

I've watched a lot of beginner guides and read about this game, it's not like i didn't try to understand the game. All these guides basically made it sound like you would never continuous hit.
Of course, that is the ideal situation. And the reason why guides don't include the constant hitting part is because each guide is about one hero, and you don't push as 1 hero. You push as a team.

I wonder if there's a pushing guide around....

Quote:
So how exactly does a pusher or support character work without gaining these levels? Their spells just allow them to do this?
earthshaker can be effective with his Fissure at level 1, that's his stun in a AOE line that also generate a solid rock alone that line. If you are PRO enough to catch someone out of position and stun so that it blocks his way to retreat, he might just be first-blooded right there if you have ranged teammates around you.

It's not that supports don't get levels at all, apparently you still wanna level up, but as support you can kind of get away with less levels and less items on you. Your job is really to babysit your carry heros, heal / help your team in fights, try to stay alive and provide as much utility as you can.

Some good supports are :
- necrolyte(has AOE heal as main spell, GG ultimate)
- warlock (single target heal/damage over time spell, ult calls down a strong monster and stun a big AOE for ~1sec when summoned)
- lion / shadow shaman (multiple disables, damage spells, etc)

Once you get into reading you will understand why these heros can get away being under-leveled. Be warned though, support heros will die, in fact quite a bit more often than other roles in the game in general (cuz it's better you than the carries, you know)

Some pusher heros like furion and keeper of the light(KOTL) can stay in lanes and push. Furions spawn treants using trees and push like your team just got a few extra creeps (meat shield). He can also gank pretty well because he has a TP spell and can lock heros in place (but not an actual disable)

Keeper of the light has a MASSIVE AOE wave that require you to channel for a few seconds, but when cast, the wave deals serious damage (is it still 500 at max level?) in a ridiculous AOE to the front. Usually the entire enemy team will avoid like the plague as soon as they know you're channeling, it will kill the entire creep wave no matter how many creeps are incoming. Down side to KOTL is that in regular players' hands he doesn't offer a lot more than that.

Quote:
So my post where I said this game was heavily based on last hitting/denying is still somewhat accurate. Yes there are other things you can do but the general strategy is that.
somewhat. Though being godly in last hitting / denying wouldn't help if you get ganked. Just....know your place in the game. If your hero needs to stay in lanes and farm that gold, please do that while keeping map awareness up. If your hero really should be moving around a bit and organizing ganks, might wanna give up that juicy creep gold and start hunting.
Quote:
Would you say the community is generally good enough that I can jump in and support people? Will I get yelled at if I don't know what they are doing, don't stun at the right time or something like that? Maybe I just pick a buff/unbuff class to start and get some experience on how the game works.
This will be a good part for me to give you my 2 cents. I usually do not recommend beginners to go support. It is simply a bit too hard to grasp when to do your supporting moves, and (to answer your other question) the general population is not good enough for you to support. You wont be supporting the whole team to victory if all your teammates are mediocre.

The best support that can work out for you IMO is necrolyte. He is ranged, has a decent AOE heal, 2 passive skills (so not too much stuff you need to activate), ultimate is easy to use.
Quote:
I haven't played SC2 since I was in Afghanistan when I talked to you guys all the time. I still watch casts from HD and Force on youtube probably 3 or 4 a week. Ill try to watch a Dota 2 one, just not sure if I will understand whats going on. I watched a top 10 fails and didn't really understand half of them lol.
yeah.....leave the dota 2 pro videos for later dude, you probably wont enjoy very much if you dont understand everything. Pros also play very differently because they are teams and they do team stuff. We in our random pub games can't.
Edited by HarrisLam - 1/11/13 at 12:55pm
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post #3227 of 17117
Last hitting is a part of dota, if you don't like it you can either
a. Get used to it and start liking it just as millions of dota players around the world have.
b. Suit yourself

Thanks smile.gif
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post #3228 of 17117
do anyone want to trade 25x dota2 keys for a Torchlight 2 game? i has 25 keys.
post #3229 of 17117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mylilpony View Post


people might talk trash to you for having a bad score even though you're a support (since they might not understand roles).

Are you talking about me ?
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post #3230 of 17117
game i just had as lich

97832476

god I did so well I dont think I can top that play in at least a month.....its that good mostly due to their weak mirana though, dominated him during lane period

and as ive said in-game, this is the most ridiculous tide turning for me so far since I started playing this game. Finally feeling a bit satisfying about all those losses lately
Edited by HarrisLam - 1/11/13 at 11:58pm
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