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post #9101 of 17115
I think there's a disconnect as to what a carry is in DoTA2 and what a carry is in LoL. I came from LoL obviously and I have a different understanding of what's going on in game.

For example, blood seeker is a melee hero but is considered a "Carry," but in LoL only ranged AD champions can really be true carries.
examples of them are Caitlyn, Graves, Ezreal, Vayne. So on and so forth, the ranged ADCs. Melee carries simply do not work in the game. Blood seeker would be considered nothing more than a jungler.

LoL's meta doesn't allow for anything other that this

1 AD carry
1 support in lane with the AD Carry
1 Mage or midlane brust DPS (AP Carry)
1 top lane tank/bruiser
1 Jungler(tanky bruiser)

In the end, while any role can technically "carry" the game, only the ADC's are considered true carries.


So how about this, someone explain the meta roles in the game and what all each role involves what a player will be doing.
Because honestly I really don't see what Windrunner does other than deal damage and disables.
If windrunner were a LoL champion, there's be no question as to her being an AD Carry, but she's not.
She's incredibly hard to catch and can use a steroid to take down towers with blazing speed by herself, which would also make her capable of splitpushing, which is a major strategy in LoL, It's won me a few games here in DoTA2.
post #9102 of 17115
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranBunnyFFXII View Post

I think there's a disconnect as to what a carry is in DoTA2 and what a carry is in LoL. I came from LoL obviously and I have a different understanding of what's going on in game.

For example, blood seeker is a melee hero but is considered a "Carry," but in LoL only ranged AD champions can really be true carries.
examples of them are Caitlyn, Graves, Ezreal, Vayne. So on and so forth, the ranged ADCs. Melee carries simply do not work in the game. Blood seeker would be considered nothing more than a jungler.

LoL's meta doesn't allow for anything other that this

1 AD carry
1 support in lane with the AD Carry
1 Mage or midlane brust DPS (AP Carry)
1 top lane tank/bruiser
1 Jungler(tanky bruiser)

In the end, while any role can technically "carry" the game, only the ADC's are considered true carries.


So how about this, someone explain the meta roles in the game and what all each role involves what a player will be doing.
Because honestly I really don't see what Windrunner does other than deal damage and disables.
If windrunner were a LoL champion, there's be no question as to her being an AD Carry, but she's not.
She's incredibly hard to catch and can use a steroid to take down towers with blazing speed by herself, which would also make her capable of splitpushing, which is a major strategy in LoL, It's won me a few games here in DoTA2.

Dota's definition of carry is simple, A hero who is more effective late game with items. DPS is the metric (damage per second) Any hero can be a carry, just others are more effective at that role than others. All HARD carries in Dota are agility based. Intel and Strength based heroes are not considered to be hard carries. The reason for this is simple, Agility heroes get damage/Armor/Attack speed per level in greater proportion to other heroes. A intel based hero will get damage and larger mana pool/mana regen, and a Strength based hero will get damage and hit points/ health regen. Thus Agility based heroes have a huge advantage when it comes to Damage/ Armor/ and Attack speed, or the metrics of a DPS based hero. Intel and Strength based heroes can carry, but are not considered to be Hard Carries.

While yes Wind Ranger can burn down a tower pretty quickly, that is not the real definition of split pusher. Split pushers can clear a creep wave fast and advance the lanes quickly and take down towers. Examples of this are Death Profit, Lycan, Shadow Shaman, Natures Profit, Lina, Tinker etc. Wind Ranger can only clear a creep wave using power shot, her attack speed is to low to do it any other way. I don't really think Split pushing is a trait of a hero, but more of a player/team game style. Although like mentioned above some heroes have advantages in this type of game play.
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post #9103 of 17115
Before I type it all out there's some good info in the wiki that helps define Dota roles: http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Role

The big distinction here is that in Dota your main carry, often referred to as a #1 role aka the farming role, is someone who scales incredibly well with items. Take for example Gyrocopter, once he has a BKB and a damage item or two, he can stand in the middle of a teamfight and flak down all the supports almost by himself. Another example, Anti-Mage with a battlefury can rack up 700gpm rotating through the jungle and get 6 slotted at mind numbing speeds (similar with Alchemist carry, has fallen off in popuarity). The big criteria of what we typically call a carry is a Hero with one or two steroids that make what they can do with gold absolutely OP, often making them a 1 man wrecking force. Usually through AOE, sometimes through 3 shotting single targets.

What you're doing with WR is fine, the 4 protect 1 strats aren't as powerful as they used to be (buyback nerfs) so running a dual or possible 3 core strat to share farm can be very effective as long as it doesn't fall behind early. I think the knee jerk reaction is that WR does not lend herself well to a dps carry role in Dota, her ult is just much better suited to small skirmishes or buildings.

That's the big difference between LoL and Dota carries. In Dota the abilities are turned up to 11, just kiting and pecking away at an enemy doesn't usually cut it. Your team often hands as much gold to the "carry" as possible, so the concern is does WR do enough with big gold? Not really.

Edit: Ninja'd, don't really agree with all the above. I still believe that STR and INT carries do exist for different strategies. Alch, Sven, DK, LS, CK or OD, SS, NP, Lesh. All do great things with items late game.
Edited by WALSRU - 3/25/14 at 9:59am
   
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post #9104 of 17115
Agree with Walrus, any hero can be the #1 position if the team agrees on it.

DK loves to do Pugna carry.

I think it's all about timing. In random pubs you can't guarantee teamwork so a lot of players fall back on super late game carries.
Edited by evilferret - 3/25/14 at 10:14am
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post #9105 of 17115
Quote:
Edit: Ninja'd, don't really agree with all the above. I still believe that STR and INT carries do exist for different strategies. Alch, Sven, DK, LS, CK or OD, SS, NP, Lesh. All do great things with items late game.

I am not saying they cannot carry. I am saying super late game these heroes get destroyed by Agility based carries. Medusa, PA, PL, Faceless Void, Anti Mage will have no issues with any of those heroes super late game.

Usually with Intel or Strength based heroes your trying to win before it gets to late game.
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post #9106 of 17115
Right, like Ef said. Different carries have different timings, doesn't make them better carries because most games don't get the chance to go that late (especially in this patch).
   
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post #9107 of 17115
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranBunnyFFXII View Post

Because honestly I really don't see what Windrunner does other than deal damage and disables.
If windrunner were a LoL champion, there's be no question as to her being an AD Carry, but she's not.
She's incredibly hard to catch and can use a steroid to take down towers with blazing speed by herself, which would also make her capable of splitpushing, which is a major strategy in LoL, It's won me a few games here in DoTA2.

Her main advantage for me is that she has no core. She's versatile and doesn't need items to do well early/mid game. Her skill set is pretty complete. She has a disable, AOE nuke, escape and a single target steroid. She just needs the early levels which is why I think hard support is awful for her.

She can do 2-4 positions well so you're covered on a good amount of lanes since you want to main a hero.

It's about efficiency. She does well without items but doesn't scale well with them. If people aren't last hitting well or denying, stealing a few cs is fine. Once people start denying and making farm difficult you have to make choices on who gets the farm.

WR does peak early which IMO is an advantage (but a disadvantage for a "traditional" carry). You can tempo control since you're at your peak and hunt enemies who aren't. Try playing her more semi-carry than carry.

Walrus covered split pushing. She doesn't have any followup to be an effective pusher. She can do it if you need to but as I said she's a jack of all trades, master of none.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WALSRU View Post

Right, like Ef said. Different carries have different timings, doesn't make them better carries because most games don't get the chance to go that late (especially in this patch).

Learning it's all about the timing windows.

I'm starting to know when games will be easy/hard just from picks based on timing windows.
Edited by evilferret - 3/25/14 at 11:24am
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post #9108 of 17115
And dota is down again, nice job volvo keep the good work up, make more hats please. nice servers though.
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post #9109 of 17115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxsick View Post

And dota is down again, nice job volvo keep the good work up, make more hats please. nice servers though.

Where?

I WANT MOAR HATS! tongue.gif

How goes the team Tox?
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post #9110 of 17115
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilferret View Post

Where?

I WANT MOAR HATS! tongue.gif

How goes the team Tox?
We we're being spectated for 100+ viewers, prolly cause of a memeber of our team having a nice fanbase thats what my friend told, not sure though.

Well we need more practice though.. we're trying everything, who's the best captain,what lanes is best? etc etc.
So yea sofar so good////// thanks for asking though. thumb.gifbiggrin.gif

i wanted to check the match after the gg out, but i cant.. dota has been lagging like crap... or jittering rather.... cant see the likes and dislikes on our game!!! biggrin.gif

8 likes 3 dislikes, not bad haha!
Edited by Toxsick - 3/25/14 at 11:38am
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