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post #71 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon19932006 View Post

I wouldn't know how it would, or may account for such things as oc of cpu/nb, and the igp (concerns apu's only) All i'm pointing out is that amd's own software points you to look at this (core temps) and not this (tcase) It is curious, no? To be clear yes, overdrive does list tcase, but not in the cpu monitoring tab, it's actually hard to find if your not looking for it.
Why would they use that for their own OVERCLOCKING software if it wasn't worth a flying .... for overclocking temperatures?
Why would Alucardvpr say "AMD recommends the Core Temp program and AMD Overdrive for this reason.
The core section of HWMonitor also reads this value, but be careful as it also shows CPU Temp" in his guide if it was not true?
I'd also like to point out he very kindly listed sources for this information, you have not listed as of yet any for yours. So why should i be inclined to believe what your saying, over what he posted?

This has been a on going topic using this thread to back up core temp readings, and has justly so migrated to this thread as well read up here, interesting stuff, and is certainly not the first time this has been discussed for years: http://www.overclock.net/t/1139726/amd-fx-bulldozer-owners-club/0_20
 
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post #72 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusher33 View Post

I was using Core Temp for awhile till summer hit and I finally experienced my own throttling. As it turns out, the throttling occurs when the socket temp in HWMonitor hits 62 even though each of the core temps were still in the upper 50's.
So now I've switched to HWMonitor as my main guide. I've still gotta re-do my rainmeter though. frown.gif

Throttling or over current protection is a motherboard based operation related to the wattage/voltage being sent through the voltage regulation modules. The CPU is not the direct cause of the throttling, but the power needed for the overclock is. This is a possible sign of poor phase design, or lack or sufficient cooling of the VRM.

http://www.overclock.net/t/943109/about-vrms-mosfets-motherboard-safety-with-125w-tdp-processors/0_20
 
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post #73 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon19932006 View Post

I wouldn't know how it would, or may account for such things as oc of cpu/nb, and the igp (concerns apu's only) All i'm pointing out is that amd's own software points you to look at this (core temps) and not this (tcase) It is curious, no? To be clear yes, overdrive does list tcase, but not in the cpu monitoring tab, it's actually hard to find if your not looking for it.
Why would they use that for their own OVERCLOCKING software if it wasn't worth a flying .... for overclocking temperatures?
Why would Alucardvpr say "AMD recommends the Core Temp program and AMD Overdrive for this reason.
The core section of HWMonitor also reads this value, but be careful as it also shows CPU Temp" in his guide if it was not true?
I'd also like to point out he very kindly listed sources for this information, you have not listed as of yet any for yours. So why should i be inclined to believe what your saying, over what he posted?

I understand what you're sayiing. I've already posted it in multiple threads but I'll do it once again. I'll post the whole string of emails for you for your perusal. (stopping at the last temp email as the tech rep and I go on to discuss other issues).

I'll start with my First email to the AMD Tech Support email address and walk it forward from there. (note they are posted as I've received them with the only "editing" done is to x out my email address and removing blank lines)
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com
To: tech.support@amd.com ;tech.support2@amd.com
CC:
Sent: 05/05/12 11:03:41
Subject: Temperatures

Currently there is a debate on overclock.net and I would like some definitive information from AMD to settle the issue once and for all and give users a place to refer to for an answer. The question is when AMD references a maximum operating temperature of 70C for the 6100 and 61C for the 8120/8150, which temperature is this refering to? Is this refering to TCase? Or TJunction? Or Tctl (the description of that and how it relates to TCase is incredibly confusing in the literature so nobody really knows how to figure out that one)? Your assistance would be greatly appreciated. While you're at it feel free to swing over and check out the thread I and some others created "FX vs Phenom II Grudge Match...AMD Slugitoutorama 2012" where we're comparing the line of FX chips vs Phenom II's with a few intel chips thrown in for comparison. I started it because I got tired of hearing "Faildozer" from the spIntel fanboys who point to the typical sysmark/vantage biased reviews and wanted a place for people to look when they are deciding on which cpu to purchase. By the way, the FX-6100 is the funnest CPU I've bought since the Athlon 64 days.

Their reply -
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
From: TECH.SUPPORT@AMD.COM
Sent: Mon 5/07/12 1:24 PM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com

Dear Stephen,

Your service request : SR #{ticketno:[8200488157]} has been reviewed and updated.

Response and Service Request History:

I understand that you are looking for clarity about the 70c maximum operating temperature of the FX-6100 and which specific temperature it references at that point. If this is incorrect, please let me know as the information provided may change.

The maximum operating temperatures for any AMD CPU is measured as TCase, as we find that the actual temperature measured by a thermistor inside the processor is a much more accurate measurement of the processor's temperature. While TJunction is helpful in determining the temperature of the actual pins that are transmitting the data, the fact that every pin doesn't fire at exactly the same time, the results can be somewhat skewed. While we don't have the tech docs up for the FX series yet in terms of max temperatures, you can see that we post TCase maximum temperatures on our Athlon/Sempron/Phenom processor Tech Docs at http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/43375.pdf , instead of using TJunction/TJ/TCore/etc.

As for Tctl, there is a technical definition at http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/41256.pdf on page 73 that (tries to) explain it. As a very crude Cole's Notes version, it doesn't measure temperature as much as it is a sliding scale that refers to the processor's current temperature as it relates to the temperature at which the cooling fan has to get to 100% to hit the maximum case temperature (TCaseMax). Confusing I know, but it allows the system to see how close it is to hitting 100% and subsequently it has to start slowing things down to get the temperature down. It is usually close to Tcase Max, but is more a point of reference for how close it is getting to Tcase Max, or if it is past that point and by how much. Things run normally at Tctl < TCaseMax - 0.125, and when it hits TCaseMax or higher, then things start getting shut down/slowed down/etc to get the temperature down. I hope that makes some semblance of sense, as it took a bit to wrap my head around it.

We appreciate your loyalty to AMD as we continue to strive for the best products in terms of graphics and processors for our customers. I am glad to hear that you are enjoying your FX 6100, and hope that the joy will continue for years to come. If you have any other questions or comments, please don't hesitate to reply directly to this email and I will try to provide any additional information that you may require.

In order to update this service request, please respond, leaving the service request reference intact.

Best regards,
AMD Global Customer Care

_____________________________________________________________________________________________
This email is a direct result of your contact with AMD Global Customer Care and not part of a campaign. There is no need to unsubscribe to this email as you will only be contacted again if you directly request another service from AMD Global Customer Care.

The contents of this message are provided for informational purposes only. AMD makes no representation or warranties with respect to the accuracy of the contents of the information provided, and reserves the right to change such information at any time, with or without notice.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

My next response (leaving out some intervening emails back and forth about CPU/NB) -
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Tue 5/15/12 11:04 AM
To: tech.support@amd.com

I apologize for going back to the temperature question again but now a new issue has popped up. Now that you've clarified that the maximum safe operating temp listed is the Tcase temperature, the confusion lies in what reading shows Tcase. I was under the impression that in a program like HWmonitor, CPUTIN = Tcase however more and more people are referring to Tcase as the "core temps" that are listed in programs like HWmonitor.

Next Reply -
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
From: TECH.SUPPORT@AMD.COM
Sent: Wed 5/16/12 8:09 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com

Dear Stephen,

Your service request : SR #{ticketno:[8200488157]} has been reviewed and updated.

Response and Service Request History:

It's quite alright, this is a question that I can't really find a specific answer to as well. Obviously software can tweak the numbers a bit (Catalyst vs HWMonitor vs CoreTemp), since they're just interpreting the BIOS info, which is the most accurate, but I can't seem to find any documentation or source code or manuals or ANYTHING from HWMonitor that shows where they determine CPUTIN. All I've seen are people noting errors in HWMonitor specifically, but obviously I can't confirm these issues. The HWMonitor forums seem to imply that it is based on TCase, but all I can confirm is that it's taking a value from the board and reporting it, but the introduction of a 3rd party really does temper the values a little bit, and they don't seem to actually say which one they are using (TJ, TCase, etc).

From what I can figure out, each software really does their own thing (like CoreTemp uses TJ for Intel processors and TCase for AMDs). I know that this didn't really help, all I can say for sure is that HWMonitor doesn't have available documentation on where they get their info, but the majority of software will just rely on the board to give them info, as they won't have access to those numbers directly, but interpretation and rounding errors and such can yield slightly skewed results.

Either way, TCase is supposed to be the physical temperature of the inside-top of the CPU, while core temperatures most often refer to CPU-NB temperatures (for AMD processors at least), or Tjunction (for either brand of processor), depending on the software. But obviously each software developer can do what they want with their information, and define/interpret it in different ways. That's part of the joy of open-sourced software, 10 versions that do the same thing to sometimes-contradictory results. I know that this really didn't answer the question, but it's all that I am able to get out of HWMonitor, and what info we have on processors in general over here.

Feel free to ask more questions, having people informed like you, who are willing to pass this information on (after interpreting and translating it into something that resembles a coherent thought) makes life easier for all of us, and helps to show people that we're more than just a manufacturer of processors and GPUs, but a company that wants to help, no matter the question or problem. .

In order to update this service request, please respond, leaving the service request reference intact.

Best regards,
AMD Global Customer Care
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

This email is a direct result of your contact with AMD Global Customer Care and not part of a campaign. There is no need to unsubscribe to this email as you will only be contacted again if you directly request another service from AMD Global Customer Care.

The contents of this message are provided for informational purposes only. AMD makes no representation or warranties with respect to the accuracy of the contents of the information provided, and reserves the right to change such information at any time, with or without notice.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

My next email -
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Wed 5/16/12 10:44 AM
To: tech.support@amd.com

I'll sum up what I've learned and deduced and tell me if it's makes sense and/or is correct. As you've stated the Tcase is a singular temperature taken at the top of the CPU (I'm assuming from a diode at the top of the die where it makes contact with the IHS?). What seems to me as a dead giveaway that Tcase is not being used by programs like HWmonitor is that they list seperate values for each of the cores that can be the same but usually differ from each other (usually by 1-3C). Are individual "core" temperatures taken from a diode within each core? Or is it mathmatically based off of something like Tjunction to give a "guesstimate" for each core? But clearly the standard assumption I see that says quote: "CPU Temp = Tjunction or true Junction Temperature (This reading is taken from the sensor fixed in CPU socket on Motherboard.)" is clearly wrong. I was also under the assumption that motherboards didn't use a "socket" diode anymore as well. Does all of that make sense?

Their reply -
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
From: TECH.SUPPORT@AMD.COM
Sent: Thu 5/17/12 8:14 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com

Dear Stephen,

Your service request : SR #{ticketno:[8200488157]} has been reviewed and updated.

Response and Service Request History:

You pretty much nailed it. I was able to get a little more info from the embedded team into borderline-proprietary information, so I'll try to elaborate on what you understood. TCase for AMD processors comes from a few thermistors (not one, apparently, just found that out) inside the processor case (at the bottom, where the pins are), connecting down to the CPU via the Junction. There are always more than 1 (at least 2, up to 6-8 potentially, but no elaboration given on how many per model), but the TCase temperature is determined by averaging those values out, done by the processor. TJunction is the temperature where the pins hit the board, and is usually a couple degrees cooler as all 940/941 pins aren't all firing at the same exact time, and not always evenly distributed when only 400 are on at one time.
TCore is actually mathematically guessed based on the varying TCase values, as there is no way to get a diode on top of the cores inside the processor, and putting it underneath the cores (between the bottom of the case and the bottom of the cores, which hover on a little silicon platform) would yield an inaccurate reading. As such, optimizing the core space on the wafers by keeping thermistors off, they just mathematically extrapolate the core temperature from the TCase values, based on core location on the processor and the values retrieved in that general area, plus some mathematical calculations.
TJunction is still a diode on the board, under the processor, which most boards still have, just in case the TCase values (or TJunction value given by Intel processors) are wrong for whatever reason. Though in some cases, TJunction can be off by as much as 20F, so it's obviously not an ideal value. Still, there are a lot of board manufacturers who will still include it, regardless of how necessary, because it's how they've always done things, and if there are problems with new processors or broken thermistors, they can still report a temperature, even if it's not the most accurate.

Sorry for the misinformation about the cores, I really had to get the embedded guys to give a little to get some information confirmation, including the number of thermistors in the case and where this coretemp comes from. A coworker summarized it well by saying that it's so tough trying to get confirmed information, because you get different reports from 3rd parties, and the actual designers/manufacturers want to keep as much information secret as possible. Sorry that this still isn't 100% concrete, but they finally gave in a bit and gave me a bit more information to work with this time, so now you (and I) have a clearer definition at least of what's going on temperature-wise.

In order to update this service request, please respond, leaving the service request reference intact.

Best regards,
AMD Global Customer Care
____________________________________________________________________________________________

This email is a direct result of your contact with AMD Global Customer Care and not part of a campaign. There is no need to unsubscribe to this email as you will only be contacted again if you directly request another service from AMD Global Customer Care.

The contents of this message are provided for informational purposes only. AMD makes no representation or warranties with respect to the accuracy of the contents of the information provided, and reserves the right to change such information at any time, with or without notice.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

AMD's Power and Thermal guide for 10H family - http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/43375.pdf

Here's "The Coolest", the author of the program "Core Temp" weighing in on a similar discussion -

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest;7227762 
After K8, AMD changed the way their internal temperature reporting mechanism worked.
With Phenom Core Temp (and HWMonitor) users were introduced to very strange readings.
In AMD's technical documentation these readings are described as non-absolute values, that are used to thermally control cooling solutions, and monitor the temperature to prevent overheating.
Reading the reply that Bubba-Hotepp got from AMD it makes sense.
Basically neither of the values we get are actually 100% (or close enough) reliable. As we are still using chips on the motherboard to read and interpret the values given off the TCase sensors, and we're still not getting accurate values from the 'TCore' readings as well.

It's really hard for me to say which readings should be trusted, it's obvious that the readings given by Core Temp at default settings are too low, as they very often dip below ambient temperature. With many samples, it became apparent that in most cases the temperature difference between TCase and TCore readings is between 10 and 15C.
My personal opinion on this issue is simply to use whatever you prefer. For TCore readings it's simply suggested to set a +15C offset.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710360&page=3

He also goes on to show that when affinity is set to a specific core in prime that the readings vary significantly (which shows distance to the "thermistor" has an effect).
Edited by Bubba Hotepp - 6/28/12 at 11:45am
post #74 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan w View Post

Throttling or over current protection is a motherboard based operation related to the wattage/voltage being sent through the voltage regulation modules. The CPU is not the direct cause of the throttling, but the power needed for the overclock is. This is a possible sign of poor phase design, or lack or sufficient cooling of the VRM.
http://www.overclock.net/t/943109/about-vrms-mosfets-motherboard-safety-with-125w-tdp-processors/0_20

Right. It's an 8+1 phase board that has seen some major overclock a few years ago. Why would it only trottle each time the temp hit 62 instead of always? When temperatures got cooler I tried again and the temps never hit 62 and it didn't throttle. Now that the heat wave has struck again, I'm seeing drop in multiplier and voltage right at 62 till it drops to 55 and then back to normal.

Unless that's how they determine over current?
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post #75 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusher33 View Post

Right. It's an 8+1 phase board that has seen some major overclock a few years ago. Why would it only trottle each time the temp hit 62 instead of always? When temperatures got cooler I tried again and the temps never hit 62 and it didn't throttle. Now that the heat wave has struck again, I'm seeing drop in multiplier and voltage right at 62 till it drops to 55 and then back to normal.
Unless that's how they determine over current?

That's the Tctl throttling that's taking place to prevent damage to the chip from overtemp.



Back to the other issue. I just got a reply from the Tech Rep about the message ACLDriver (forget how to spell his handle) posted from "Alex Cromwell".
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

From: TECH.SUPPORT@AMD.COM
Sent: Thu 6/28/12 11:29 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com

Dear Stephen,

Your service request : SR #{ticketno:[8200488157]} has been reviewed and updated.

Response and Service Request History:

I don't know him, but if he's at R&D I'd assume that he's accurate, since he's physically designing the hardware. But it just proves what I was saying, So how are they saying that this is disproving what I said? Honestly, he's down in the depths of the CPUs, he'd be the source of completely accurate information, if it really came from him. Since he's in Colorado and I'm in Canada, I can't say that I've met him personally, however. (My comments are in regular font in the middle of the italics copy of his e-mail)

Concerning your question regarding the temperatures with your processor. (1090) the maximum temperature threshold is 62 Celsius which set for the internal die (core) temperature of the chip. The core temperatures have an equational offset to determine temperature which equalizes at about 45 Celsius thus giving you more accurate readings at peak temperatures (the Tctl we discussed before). The hindrance in this is the sub ambient idle temperature readings you speak of.

The silicon and adhesives used in manufacturing these processors has a peak temperature rating of 97+ Celsius before any form of degradation will take place. The processor also has a thermal shut off safe guard in place that shuts the processor down at 90 Celsius. (Never said anything to the contrary)

The Cpu temperature (TJunction) is read form a sensor embedded within the socket of your motherboard causing about a 7-10 Celsius variance form the actual Cpu temperature, which may be what you are reading about on the net.

You can use an application called AMD overdrive, that will allow you to monitor your temperatures accurately. (By measuring TCase via the thermistor inside)

As long as your core temperature has not exceeded the high side of the 60 degree mark for extended periods of time you should be ok. 62 degrees holds a generous safety net to begin with.

So if I missed something, let me know, but I don't see this contradicting me per se. But like I said, if it's really someone from our Colorado lab, that centre is solely focused on R&D and Design, so he would be the definitive source if we had contradicting information, provided it's really him, but it's hard/weird to try to spoof an AMD employee for a forum argument.

In order to update this service request, please respond, leaving the service request reference intact.

Best regards,
AMD Global Customer Care
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

This email is a direct result of your contact with AMD Global Customer Care and not part of a campaign. There is no need to unsubscribe to this email as you will only be contacted again if you directly request another service from AMD Global Customer Care.

The contents of this message are provided for informational purposes only. AMD makes no representation or warranties with respect to the accuracy of the contents of the information provided, and reserves the right to change such information at any time, with or without notice.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Note how he uses the phrase " the maximum temperature threshold is 62 Celsius which set for the internal die (core) temperature". He says "core" temp (singular) not "for the internal die temperatures of the cores" (plural). IMHO it's this use of the term "core" that's causing all of the confusion.

I'm going to push further to find out which temp reading supplies the readings for the "cores" in AOD. Is it Tcore which is then a formulaic approximation or "Tcase" which is the average of the thermistors?
Edited by Bubba Hotepp - 6/28/12 at 12:18pm
post #76 of 117
Quote:
I don't know him, but if he's at R&D I'd assume that he's accurate, since he's physically designing the hardware. But it just proves what I was saying, So how are they saying that this is disproving what I said? Honestly, he's down in the depths of the CPUs, he'd be the source of completely accurate information, if it really came from him. Since he's in Colorado and I'm in Canada, I can't say that I've met him personally, however.

Sounds like we need to buy them some lunch for them to get together. tongue.gif
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post #77 of 117
@Bubba -

With regards to previous and current architecture, are these confirmations on both architectures (Phenom II & Bulldozer)? Or just one or the other?

And - many props for diving deep and getting some pearls. thumb.gif
    
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post #78 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by GanjaSMK View Post

@Bubba -
With regards to previous and current architecture, are these confirmations on both architectures (Phenom II & Bulldozer)? Or just one or the other?
And - many props for diving deep and getting some pearls. thumb.gif

As it's been explained to me the change was between K7 and K8 with K7 and before only having a thermistor on the Motherboard beneath the socket and nothing on the CPU itself. As far as I've been able to dig up and the info I've received from the Tech Rep the temp reporting hasn't changed from then till now (although I doubt we'd be able to find out if they have added, subtracted or changed the location of the "Tcase" thermistors on the CPU package as I'm sure that's "proprietary" info, it appears that it was like pulling teeth for the tech rep to even get them to divulge the information that they did).
post #79 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

As it's been explained to me the change was between K7 and K8 with K7 and before only having a thermistor on the Motherboard beneath the socket and nothing on the CPU itself. As far as I've been able to dig up and the info I've received from the Tech Rep the temp reporting hasn't changed from then till now (although I doubt we'd be able to find out if they have added, subtracted or changed the location of the "Tcase" thermistors on the CPU package as I'm sure that's "proprietary" info, it appears that it was like pulling teeth for the tech rep to even get them to divulge the information that they did).

I think it's safe to say that the definitions I've given for the readings are accurate. Now the only lingering question is what do the "labeled" readings (CPUTIN, TMPIN0, individual core temps) in programs like "HWMonitor" actually get their readings from? (Tcase, Tcore, Tjunction etc) I just fired off an email to Asrock to see what they have to say.

Edit - Until I hear otherwise I'm going to go by the assumption that "CPUTIN" or for gigabyte users one of the "TMPIN" readings are taken from TCase and the "core temps" are taken from "Tcore. IMHO until we know for sure that's the only way to "play it safe" at this point.
post #80 of 117
Very informative thread, I've always wonder which is the right temp I should keep an eye on because on load my cpu temps is normally 17C hotter than the core temps as seen in the pic below.

337

But as an unlocked cpu (X6 1600T) my core temp is non existent and when running prime95 for hours the cpu temps would reach 66C so I'm wondering if this is a safe temp.

337
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