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[Pop Sci] Physicists Say Speed-of-Light-Breaking Neutrinos Would've Lost Their Energy - Page 3

post #21 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by _02 View Post
People have a great capacity to convey information abstractly. Scientists are just not typically imaginative people when it comes to communication.



I know nothing about astrophysics or exotic particles is essentially simple, but maybe that is because we've yet to really wrap out heads around them.
It's ironic that that quote is from a scientist.

Edit:
1. A lot of non-classical physical models, being mathematical in nature, are not intuitive, so it's not that easily understood. Anyone who has studied quantum mechanics I think will know what I'm talking about.
2. It's disheartening seeing a lot of non-scientists post all this "this proves everything we know about physics is wrong and I could have told you that years ago" nonsense.
Edited by Wavefunction - 10/4/11 at 10:06am
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post #22 of 98
I smell a cover up o.O
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post #23 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontpwnmebro View Post
well i don't know if that stuff is really fundamental or basic. i can't imagine trying to tell my grandma how to imagine 11 dimensions or how gravity bends space-time
It isn't. However people like Stephen Hawking, Leonard Susskind, Brian Greene or Roger Penrose put out advanced (IMO) reading for the slightly educated layperson. There is a wealth of accessible literature out there for people with no formal training in physics/math.

Hawking's "Universe in a nutshell" can communicate multidimensional concepts on a highschool reading level, especially with the illustrations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavefunction View Post
1. A lot of non-classical physical models, being mathematical in nature, are not intuitive, so it's not that easily understood. Anyone who has studied quantum mechanics I think will know what I'm talking about.
It could be argued that our intuitions are simply wrong, and that the concepts can be taught intuitively with the correct thought experiments, examples and summations. Layperson reading excites me because it introduces these paradigm shifts to the public without relegating it to science quackery. You are right that quantum concepts can be very challenging to grasp, especially without a math background to solidify the reasoning (which I lack, and struggle to incorporate some things I read).

Quote:
2. It's disheartening seeing a lot of non-scientists post all this "this proves everything we know about physics is wrong and I could have told you that years ago" nonsense.
The downside to my points above is that everyone becomes some kind of armchair professor. I am grateful that laypeople can learn these things and that they are interested, but people need to keep it well within the realm of informed laypeople and not pretend like they have any clue what is happening in labs.
Edited by _02 - 10/4/11 at 10:22am
    
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post #24 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontpwnmebro View Post
well i don't know if that stuff is really fundamental or basic. i can't imagine trying to tell my grandma how to imagine 11 dimensions or how gravity bends space-time
Brian Greene actually explains both quite well at a level a high school freshman can understand


edit: Hawkings also works^^
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post #25 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by _02 View Post
Hey, we discovered something that may challenge accepted theory. Check this for me.
Nope, it breaks another accepted theory.
Case closed.

All this does is say there is conflict with known theory. They don't explain the observation. Although I do agree that measurement error is more likely.

They think that:
Exactly. I think that there is likely some explanation that doesn't necessarily involve speeds faster than light but to essentially say that it didn't happen because what they would expect to take place did not occur is putting the cart before the horse.
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post #26 of 98
Hmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhill2029 View Post
Oh those theorists.....
... always theorizing.
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post #27 of 98
They are in the "hashing it out" phase. Have a little faith in the scientific method folks!
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post #28 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmung View Post
I'll wait for some one to actually perform the same test.
Do you have a giant particle accelerator in your basement? CERN has the largest particle accelerator in the world - this makes it difficult to reproduce the same results unless you go to CERN and do the experiments there. And CERN isn't the easiest place to get into.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rticle_physics

If I read those tables right, CERN's accelerator is 27 km in circumference. The next biggest one that's still operational is 3.8 km. That's nearly 7 times as small. Even if it was possible to reproduce the experiment outside of CERN, you'd need to convince several authority figures at Brookhaven to perform the experiment there. Thus, it's much easier to look at the math behind the physics, and look for possible errors that scientists at CERN made, and for explanations as to why it couldn't have happened.
    
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post #29 of 98
Surely if this goes against one of the theories that most of modern physics is based on, its obviously going to clash with other theories, especially if they are based on the original theory in question. Am I right?
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post #30 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach 5 View Post
Surely if this goes against one of the theories that most of modern physics is based on, its obviously going to clash with other theories, especially if they are based on the original theory in question. Am I right?
You have to split science between 2 levels. They are working on the quantum level therefore the laws of physics are different. This is where quantum mechanics comes in. Now we don't have a 100% understand of it from what I read about it. We understand a lot more about the laws of physics you and I operate on, but on the quantum level, they are just beginning to scratch the surface.

So theoretically if you apply the rules the general population learns in like high school such as e=mc^2 and what not, then breaking the speed of light would be impossible unless you had something to keep you from getting "heavier". Of course that's not taking into account a bunch of other things nor is the 100% bonafide correct theory either.

At the quantum level, things just seem to do what ever they want. So with our limited equipment and understanding, there is a chance that it did but we don't have sensitive enough equipment to measure that, or that it didn't break the barrier. But since only one group of scientist can actually do the experiment, we have to look at it indirectly in terms of scrutiny (the mathematics behind it).
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