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[Pop Sci] Physicists Say Speed-of-Light-Breaking Neutrinos Would've Lost Their Energy - Page 7

post #61 of 98
I love how scientists insist that because something has never happened or has always happened a certain way for the past millions-billions of years, that it will ALWAYS work that way. It's like saying that there has never and will never be a cure for a particular disease; a breakthrough always eventually comes. I'd love to see their response if they were to personally witness the incident.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 10/10/11 at 9:04am
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post #62 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros;15247888 
I love how scientists insist that because something has never happened or has always happened a certain way for the past millions-billions of years, that it will ALWAYS work that way. It's like saying that there has never and will never be a cure for a particular disease; a breakthrough always eventually comes.

Pretty sure we've only been tracking these phenomena for ~5000 years or so.
I wouldn't assume anything prior to that...
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post #63 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazar;15247904 
Pretty sure we've only been tracking these phenomena for ~5000 years or so.
I wouldn't assume anything prior to that...

(Can't tell if you were against my point or not but) That's exactly what I mean. Why do they insist that things worked the same way millions-billions of years ago as now? There's no way they would know. Just as "climates" among other long term conditions change, why can't everything else in the universe change?
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post #64 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazar;15247866 
How we perceive externals (and internals) changes as well.
I think this will ultimately turn out to be a red herring.

However, for the sake of argument, I just think it's absurd people are tossing around the word "impossible" and saying "it can't be done", when discussing universal phenomena.

You're misunderstanding why people claim that breaking the lightspeed barrier is impossible.

Relativity theory makes some predictions. If we test those predictions, we can logically assume that, if they're shown to be true, that the theory is true unless proven otherwise.

One of the points in relativity theory is that as you approach lightspeed, it takes exponentially more energy to continue to accelerate [as the faster an object moves, the more energy it has, and thus more mass] until it would take an infinite amount of energy to go faster.

While that doesn't mean that faster-than-light is impossible, our current understand is that it is. That doesn't mean we don't want to be proven wrong. I, for one, would LOVE to be shown that FTL travel is possible; it would mean that I might be part of humanity's expansion into space, which is a dream of mine.
post #65 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros;15247938 
There's no way they would know. Just as "climates" among other long term conditions change, why can't everything else in the universe change?

Are you suggesting that fundamental laws may vary or change?

I was always under the impression that the universe as we know it is a very finely tuned instrument, be it from an anthropic principle, or whatever means you wish to attribute it to. Changing even a tiny detail in the laws of physics would be catastrophic to the fundamental nature of the universe and matter within it.

External bubble universes could vary in physical law, but I would imagine our single universe to be static. If they did change, I'd think it would be pretty stark, not just slightly different. Matter as we know it may cease to exist with just a small change in some force or principle.

The whole cosmic landscape (all potential universes) is postulated to be largely uninhabitable (by our standards) chaos. So the balance of forces and governing laws needs to be very precise in order to support life in a universe as we know it. Most alternate configurations to the laws in our universe would not permit us to exist.
Edited by _02 - 10/10/11 at 9:36am
    
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post #66 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by _02;15248111 
Are you suggesting that fundamental laws may vary or change?

I was always under the impression that the universe as we know it is a very finely tuned instrument, be it from an anthropic principle, or whatever means you wish to attribute it to. Changing even a tiny detail in the laws of physics would be catastrophic to the fundamental nature of the universe and matter within it.

External bubble universes could vary in physical law, but I would imagine our single universe to be static. If they did change, I'd think it would be pretty stark, not just slightly different. Matter as we know it may cease to exist with just a small change in some force or principle.

The whole cosmic landscape (all potential universes) is postulated to be largely uninhabitable (by our standards) chaos. So the balance of forces and governing laws needs to be very precise in order to support life in a universe as we know it. Most alternate configurations to the laws in our universe would not permit us to exist.

Well I mean, if CERN's project truly did outpace the speed of light, even by billionths of a second, it technically broke the law of relativity, so what says no other fundamental principles can be broken?
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post #67 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros;15248313 
Well I mean, if CERN's project truly did outpace the speed of light, even by billionths of a second, it technically broke the law of relativity, so what says no other fundamental principles can be broken?

It would just say that what we thought was a fundamental process was incomplete or inaccurate, not that it necessarily changed. Or it could be an exception, which in my mind is the same thing as saying our understanding of the principle is incomplete.

If some fundamental force did change, I think that EVERYTHING would change with it on a cosmic scale, which would be crazy. Maybe that is an explanation for the expansion of the universe relative to time.
Edited by _02 - 10/10/11 at 9:49am
    
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post #68 of 98
^^ You make it sound like "laws" can be altered or change on their own. Personally, I think that the physical laws are just the only way that things work. Sort of like how the only way to gain energy is to ingest food. There is no way around it, this is how things work and I personally think that the laws cant be altered because its the only way that things will work.

By the way we haven't even seen much of our universe let a lone the universe so why do you think that a large percentage of it is uninhabitable? Personally I think that the universe is streaming with life.

I wouldn't be surprised if our whole understanding of how the universe began or is, is completely wrong. Maybe someday scientists will throw out the big bang theory and the new theory will be something a lot simpler. Maybe another theory will come a long after that one and so on.

There's a reason why there's so many theory's that postulate how the universe began, its because we don't know the exact answer yet because we're extremely ignorant of our universe.

EDIT: Personally I think that this particle didn't break the speed of light and that their measurement data is just wrong. That's an awfully fast speed and to be able to calculate the speed exactly seems like a tremendous feat. It could also be a publicity stunt, if it is than it worked!
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post #69 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren;15248368 
^^ You make it sound like "laws" can be altered or change on their own.

I'm saying the opposite, I agree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren;15248368 
By the way we haven't even seen much of our universe let a lone the universe so why do you think that a large percentage of it is uninhabitable? Personally I think that the universe is streaming with life.

I'm not talking about our universe, I'm talking about all the multiple universes that are possible according to string theory, and how they each have a unique set of physical laws. Given that our universe requires very strict balance (see: cosmological constant - the anthropic principle part) to allow us to exist, it is probable that most all OTHER UNIVERSES would be essentially physical chaos, or at least not fit to resemble life as we know it.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_constant
Quote:
...Specifically, if the vacuum energy is negative and its absolute value is substantially larger than it appears to be in the observed universe (say, a factor of 10 larger), holding all other variables (e.g. matter density) constant, that would mean that the universe is closed; furthermore, its lifetime would be shorter than the age of our universe, possibly too short for the intelligent life to form. On the other hand, a universe with a large positive cosmological constant would expand too fast, preventing galaxy formation. According to Weinberg, domains where the vacuum energy are compatible with life would be comparatively rare.
See: Anthropic Principle, String Theory Landscape

My point being, adjustment to any detail of our fundamental laws would potentially place out universe in a different place on the whole landscape of possible universes, where most places on the landscape result in Physical laws that could not support our version of life. There could be as little as one possible universe in which we can exist as we do today. We'd be very lucky.

At least this is what I gather from what I've read.
Edited by _02 - 10/10/11 at 10:06am
    
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post #70 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by _02;15248332 
It would just say that what we thought was a fundamental process was incomplete or inaccurate, not that it necessarily changed. Or it could be an exception, which in my mind is the same thing as saying our understanding of the principle is incomplete.

If some fundamental force did change, I think that EVERYTHING would change with it on a cosmic scale, which would be crazy. Maybe that is an explanation for the expansion of the universe relative to time.

I disagree.

The words and ideas we ascribe to these phenomena are short-sighted at best.

The law does change completely when data like this (FTL) is introduced.

That's not to say what is happening has changed, but the theory itself (strings of words) is changed.


I think the theory of relativity is just that, relative. It's describing a small subset of universal phenomena to a fairly accurate degree, which we can make use of.

But like particle/quantum physics, for which ToR CANNOT be applied, I'm thinking anything close to and post light speed, will require it's own brand of physics.
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