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[MaxPC] Windows 8 to use "dramatically" less RAM - Page 5

post #41 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrocks84 View Post
Well, I had read it from the link below:

http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/For...-2a975f58dc73/

I'm not a developer so I just took the Microsoft employee's words at face value but you seem to know more than me. I guess the registry is going to be more locked down than before but still in use.
Wasn't saying you were wrong

Just saying there will be a way found...

Although the new API's are much better.
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post #42 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
It would be great to have 0 fragmentation, but I don't think it'll be possible.
Ext2, Ext3, Ext4, ReiserFS, ZFS, HAMMER, btrfs, JFS, XFS, BFS, etc.

It's very possible.

For the registry, they should use configuration files and just use a symlink like approach so anything that does use them still can (ie. So the registry writes are written to a config file in the same folder as the main .exe, but the application doesn't know the difference)
    
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post #43 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
Ext2, Ext3, Ext4, ReiserFS, ZFS, HAMMER, btrfs, JFS, XFS, BFS, etc.

It's very possible.

For the registry, they should use configuration files and just use a symlink like approach so anything that does use them still can (ie. So the registry writes are written to a config file in the same folder as the main .exe, but the application doesn't know the difference)
Oops, now they need to go back and adjust documentation and support topics to adjust a configuration files instead of a registry key.

Oh wait, lets make registry changes reflect back to the configuration file. Oops... now we're back where we started, all this work, we may as well have just stuck with the registry.

This is too hard simply because old programs and Windows internals will still be using the same APIs (RegXXX)... if we add "symlinking" to configuration files to these API's, do we use heuristics to detect if Windows is calling the APIs or if a third party application is calling the APIs? Do we only turn it on for applications? Do we only turn it on for .exe's (read: now what about COM in-process servers...)? How do we define what a "main .exe" is? If we only use it for main .exe's, what's stopping someone writing a DLL as a service, loading it into svchost.exe (which would not have symlinking enabled for obvious reasons) and then using the registry directly that way?

What about current applications? How is Windows supposed to know what registry keys belong to what so it can redirect these writes to "new" configuration files? Registry keys are a on a "set and forget" basis... after an application writes to the registry, Windows doesn't keep track of what application actually wrote to what key. Furthermore, the registry can have fine grained, NTFS like ACL's applied to it by key, parent key, parent's parent's key and so on. How do we apply these same ACL's to a single configuration file? Sure we can set NTFS permissions, but how do we deny read or write to only a single key?

Sure we can add new RegXXX APIs that only perform symlinking, but what's stopping those programs using the old APIs without the symlinking? In this scenario we may as well just develop a new framework to store application settings (i.e. Windows Runtime and Windows.Storage.ApplicationData).

How about we just do it for new applications only? Okay, so how do we know what is a new application? Sure, introduce a new capability in the application's manifest that specifies it wants to take advantage of the new configuration file redirection.... I bet 100% of apps will not mark their application as "redirect aware", and we're still back using the same old registry.

It ain't going anywhere. No use trying to replace it or workaround it with the desktop apps. They all sound good in theory, but when you try and put it into practice, or even perspective it just balloons out and becomes a waste of time that is better well spent on developing something new. Besides, along time ago apps were trusted to do the right thing. Anything new they try and use as a band-aid solution is going to be abused.

The metro apps have something new - I posted links to the new API's for the WinRT for storing application configuration.

In fact, .NET has already done this, anyway
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post #44 of 106
I'm using 2.83 gigs right now. I tend to think I'll need to open something again later so I don't close it and just let it sit there. You can do that with how cheap RAM is now though not like the 5 left over isnt enough.
    
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post #45 of 106
Why haven't they just kept keeping ram usage optimized? Shouldn't be hard for them.
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post #46 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post
Oops, now they need to go back and adjust documentation and support topics to adjust a configuration files instead of a registry key.

Oh wait, lets make registry changes reflect back to the configuration file. Oops... now we're back where we started, all this work, we may as well have just stuck with the registry.

This is too hard simply because old programs and Windows internals will still be using the same APIs (RegXXX)... if we add "symlinking" to configuration files to these API's, do we use heuristics to detect if Windows is calling the APIs or if a third party application is calling the APIs? Do we only turn it on for applications? Do we only turn it on for .exe's (read: now what about COM in-process servers...)? How do we define what a "main .exe" is? If we only use it for main .exe's, what's stopping someone writing a DLL as a service, loading it into svchost.exe (which would not have symlinking enabled for obvious reasons) and then using the registry directly that way?

What about current applications? How is Windows supposed to know what registry keys belong to what so it can redirect these writes to "new" configuration files? Registry keys are a on a "set and forget" basis... after an application writes to the registry, Windows doesn't keep track of what application actually wrote to what key. Furthermore, the registry can have fine grained, NTFS like ACL's applied to it by key, parent key, parent's parent's key and so on. How do we apply these same ACL's to a single configuration file? Sure we can set NTFS permissions, but how do we deny read or write to only a single key?

Sure we can add new RegXXX APIs that only perform symlinking, but what's stopping those programs using the old APIs without the symlinking? In this scenario we may as well just develop a new framework to store application settings (i.e. Windows Runtime and Windows.Storage.ApplicationData).

How about we just do it for new applications only? Okay, so how do we know what is a new application? Sure, introduce a new capability in the application's manifest that specifies it wants to take advantage of the new configuration file redirection.... I bet 100% of apps will not mark their application as "redirect aware", and we're still back using the same old registry.

It ain't going anywhere. No use trying to replace it or workaround it with the desktop apps. They all sound good in theory, but when you try and put it into practice, or even perspective it just balloons out and becomes a waste of time that is better well spent on developing something new. Besides, along time ago apps were trusted to do the right thing. Anything new they try and use as a band-aid solution is going to be abused.

The metro apps have something new - I posted links to the new API's for the WinRT for storing application configuration.

In fact, .NET has already done this, anyway
You sir, are a god! Rep'd
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post #47 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boinz View Post
You sir, are a god! Rep'd
I was actually expecting flaming and all sorts of counter arguments, but cool, and thanks!

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post #48 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post
Oops, now they need to go back and adjust documentation and support topics to adjust a configuration files instead of a registry key.

Oh wait, lets make registry changes reflect back to the configuration file. Oops... now we're back where we started, all this work, we may as well have just stuck with the registry.

This is too hard simply because old programs and Windows internals will still be using the same APIs (RegXXX)... if we add "symlinking" to configuration files to these API's, do we use heuristics to detect if Windows is calling the APIs or if a third party application is calling the APIs? Do we only turn it on for applications? Do we only turn it on for .exe's (read: now what about COM in-process servers...)? How do we define what a "main .exe" is? If we only use it for main .exe's, what's stopping someone writing a DLL as a service, loading it into svchost.exe (which would not have symlinking enabled for obvious reasons) and then using the registry directly that way?

What about current applications? How is Windows supposed to know what registry keys belong to what so it can redirect these writes to "new" configuration files? Registry keys are a on a "set and forget" basis... after an application writes to the registry, Windows doesn't keep track of what application actually wrote to what key. Furthermore, the registry can have fine grained, NTFS like ACL's applied to it by key, parent key, parent's parent's key and so on. How do we apply these same ACL's to a single configuration file? Sure we can set NTFS permissions, but how do we deny read or write to only a single key?

Sure we can add new RegXXX APIs that only perform symlinking, but what's stopping those programs using the old APIs without the symlinking? In this scenario we may as well just develop a new framework to store application settings (i.e. Windows Runtime and Windows.Storage.ApplicationData).

How about we just do it for new applications only? Okay, so how do we know what is a new application? Sure, introduce a new capability in the application's manifest that specifies it wants to take advantage of the new configuration file redirection.... I bet 100% of apps will not mark their application as "redirect aware", and we're still back using the same old registry.

It ain't going anywhere. No use trying to replace it or workaround it with the desktop apps. They all sound good in theory, but when you try and put it into practice, or even perspective it just balloons out and becomes a waste of time that is better well spent on developing something new. Besides, along time ago apps were trusted to do the right thing. Anything new they try and use as a band-aid solution is going to be abused.

The metro apps have something new - I posted links to the new API's for the WinRT for storing application configuration.

In fact, .NET has already done this, anyway
I was meaning as legacy support, so old applications still work but new applications use the new method.

But true enough on the bandaid solutions being abused, its annoying to see that happen so often.
    
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post #49 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
I was meaning as legacy support, so old applications still work but new applications use the new method.

But true enough on the bandaid solutions being abused, its annoying to see that happen so often.
That's good, but there's nothing stopping the new applications using the old method, as I mentioned, unfortunately (Hint: Why learn something new when you can just continue using what already works? This happened with Dynamic Data Exchange. Microsoft came out with all this new exciting stuff like WCF, remoting, LPC, but people still continued to use DDE)

Also, "new" applications might not just be an .exe. They could be COM servers, hosted services and the like... all that I mentioned. You can't use the symlinking for these anyway And you still have the ACL/security problem to address with the "new" apps and the new synlinking... (Hey how come all these new apps have suddenly allowed every man and his dog to change their settings!? My old <insert old version here> never did this!)

In any case, "new" applications (ones that choose to use the .NET Framework) already have something like this to use: .NET configuration files. (System.Configuration namespace).

And indeed, that is annoying.

P.S. .. another Aussie!
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post #50 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmark2 View Post
Isn't high end desktop RAM like 3-7 watts per stick max?
Multiply that by a few hundred sticks in a server room that runs 24/7 and you're looking at a fair bit of power, which has to be offset with more A/C.
    
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Software News › [MaxPC] Windows 8 to use "dramatically" less RAM