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[Official] AMD Bulldozer Reviews Thread - Page 173

post #1721 of 2308
Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealKillah;15291863 
Again, if that is your point, they need benchmarks to illustrate the point.

Everyone that has quoted me seems to miss the point of my post (which is still valid) in that the graph shown by the OP shows superiority of the SB platform, but does not show/indicate a bad user experience on BD.

PS. I would bet that 60hz is the STANDARD for gaming monitors and will account for 90% of the current systems out there.

These are enthusiast level setups, not the "90% of the current systems out there" that you're referring to. I'd say it's highly probable for anyone that throws down the cash for either of these setups to also have a 120hz monitor, or multiple 120hz monitors. I know if I paid for 3 6970's and chose to game on a single 1920x1200 monitor, it certainly wouldn't be 60hz.
Edited by Pillz Here - 10/13/11 at 9:48am
post #1722 of 2308
Bull dozer has one area where it absolutely shines and I would recommend it hands down to any AM3+ board owner... but thats sadly a small percentage of even enthusiast level applications...

I still think all the issues listed in the last few posts, along with AMD's new arch, a radically new arch and transition to 32nm are all reasons adding up to a poor launch... They obviously had high hopes and took a serious chance... it was just too risky...

Though that sounds like a cop-out... so lets all hope and pray they work out the kinks for the next edition.... is there a BD-E or just going to Piledriver now?
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post #1723 of 2308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Karnage View Post
Personally i could have lived with a Xfire comparo. I don't even believe i'll run 3 cards in my lifetime
wow you must be really old. I remeber when I was amazed with the voodoo cards. Then I was amazed that cpus where going to hit 1 ghz. Now that I have a server at work with 24 cores and 256 GB of ram. I really can't forsee how things will be in the future.
post #1724 of 2308
With all of the problems - looks like a good time to pick up some discounted Phenom II processors...
post #1725 of 2308
At the end of the day, there are no excuses, Bulldozer fell flat on it face. Sure there are some things that after the fact will help, but it just underwhelmed overall. It sucks to see because I am always pulling for AMD but it looks like I will be sticking with Intel for a while.
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post #1726 of 2308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz Here View Post
These are enthusiast level setups, not the "90% of the current systems out there" that you're referring to. I'd say it's highly probable for anyone that throws down the cash for either of these setups to also have a 120hz monitor, or multiple 120hz monitors. I know if I paid for 3 6970's and chose to game on a single 1920x1200 monitor, it certainly wouldn't be 60hz.
Valid point, for sure.
    
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post #1727 of 2308
It boggles me how amd can get it so right with their gpu's but cant reach people's expectations with their cpu's.
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post #1728 of 2308
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile View Post
Yields are terrible. The launch was probably comprised of mostly paper.
I don't expect some magic 50% performance increase.

Linux developers seem to have had (still having?) a difficult time redesigning the scheduler to suit the new architecture. I assume that Windows developers are having similar issues. The issue talked about earlier in this thread (where disabling the second integer core in each module improves performance/clock). While this could show a problem with the decode unit but the decode unit is probably not the biggest problem. Data and instructions reach the integer cores only after being decoded. A decoder bottleneck will exist regardless of which integer core or cores are working downstream(the max no. of instructions decoded per unit of time is the max no. of instructions which can be executed per unit of time regardless of how many execution units are present); however, rearranging the chip in software (via disabling some cores) to simulate a more traditional architecture shows that the performance gains are more likely to be due to better scheduling optimization and less cache thrashing (not "getting more instructions to fewer core").

AMD's problem is that the CPU (apparently) can't effectively use all the available integer cores due to poor scheduling by the OS, large cache latencies, not enough decoders, and poor branch prediction. That is to say that the integer units (and possibly the FPU's) are being bottlenecked.

The poor scheduling can be fixed and (based off Anandtech's Windows 8 not-fully-optimized alpha test) will decrease normal power consumption (unused cores can downclock) while increase performance 10% or maybe more (some 4c/4cu benches showed >20% increases). The cache latencies were probably increased over expected numbers to increase yields due to poor 32nm performance at Globalfoundries. They will probably increase with the next stepping or two (side note: one of AMD's goals was near linear performance increase with clockspeed (something SB doesn't achieve) and getting the 30% clockspeed advantage over Deneb that was initially expected will also be a side affect of fab improvements).

Improving decoders (if necessary) and improving branch prediction require a complete reworking of the front-end of the processor. With normal development times for simple chip redesigns being a couple of years, I suspect that AMD knew months ago about the poor decode and branch prediction. This is the only explanation for how soon piledriver is being released (just a few months rather than a couple of years for a major redesign). AMD likely counted on the 30% greater stock clockspeed to carry them until the redesign was finished (notice that the 4.6Ghz overclock benches (roughly 30% faster than Deneb designs) were fairly competitive), but AMD was screwed by the bad fab (though I believe AMD to be at fault as well for shipping a faulty design).


My prediction (please don't quote me later, I am being optimistic, but in reality, I have little faith)

Between a 10-15% average OS performance increase (this seems fairly definite), better fabs giving (I guess) 20% increase in clockspeed rather than 30% (scaling almost linearly), better fabs giving nearly 80% improvement in cache latencies (to match Deneb latencies should be completely possible, cache is cache), and 10-15% IPC improvement (also seems fairly definite) due to more decode and better branch prediction, I believe that the next iteration will show more of the theoretical potential.

edit: At best, 15% from OS and 15% from redesign gives 30% IPC performance boost (making it 20% faster than Deneb and 20% slower than Sandybridge). Better cache latencies are a mixed bag; they may give less than 2% for some applications or they may give >20% for others. If clockspeed can be increased the total increases give between 35-90% increases in performance (that's a huge delta). Even with a 70-90% increase in overall performance, performance per transister would still be worse than Sandybridge.

This seems to be the only explanation for why a chip half the transistor count of bulldozer can have better performance. As the chip is currently, I couldn't recommend anyone buy one (I don't think that I could recommend one even if the OS problem went away).
Excellent post sir! +rep
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post #1729 of 2308
this is what i was expecting

====================== bulldozer

==================== i7 2600k

========= i5 etc

======= phenom II

stable again
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post #1730 of 2308
Hey there, everyone!

Please remember that we should all be civil and professional on this forum. Please check your profanity and personal insults at the door.
     
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