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post #4801 of 8112
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan w View Post

Here is the specs on your FX-4100 Max core temp limit is 70 C I would shoot for 60-65c when running prime for 24/7 use. Or if you go by Bubbas Tcase theory than TMPIN1
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Bulldozer/AMD-FX-Series%20FX-4100.html
However not until you install these:http://www.enzotechnology.com/mos-c1.htm buy 2 packs and install them on each mosfet for the cpu power

It's not a "theory". From AMD Tech Support -
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
From: TECH.SUPPORT@AMD.COM
Sent: Thu 5/17/12 8:14 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com

Dear Stephen,

Your service request : SR #{ticketno:[8200488157]} has been reviewed and updated.

Response and Service Request History:

You pretty much nailed it. I was able to get a little more info from the embedded team into borderline-proprietary information, so I'll try to elaborate on what you understood. TCase for AMD processors comes from a few thermistors (not one, apparently, just found that out) inside the processor case (at the bottom, where the pins are), connecting down to the CPU via the Junction. There are always more than 1 (at least 2, up to 6-8 potentially, but no elaboration given on how many per model), but the TCase temperature is determined by averaging those values out, done by the processor. TJunction is the temperature where the pins hit the board, and is usually a couple degrees cooler as all 940/941 pins aren't all firing at the same exact time, and not always evenly distributed when only 400 are on at one time.
TCore is actually mathematically guessed based on the varying TCase values, as there is no way to get a diode on top of the cores inside the processor, and putting it underneath the cores (between the bottom of the case and the bottom of the cores, which hover on a little silicon platform) would yield an inaccurate reading. As such, optimizing the core space on the wafers by keeping thermistors off, they just mathematically extrapolate the core temperature from the TCase values, based on core location on the processor and the values retrieved in that general area, plus some mathematical calculations.
TJunction is still a diode on the board, under the processor, which most boards still have, just in case the TCase values (or TJunction value given by Intel processors) are wrong for whatever reason. Though in some cases, TJunction can be off by as much as 20F, so it's obviously not an ideal value. Still, there are a lot of board manufacturers who will still include it, regardless of how necessary, because it's how they've always done things, and if there are problems with new processors or broken thermistors, they can still report a temperature, even if it's not the most accurate.

Sorry for the misinformation about the cores, I really had to get the embedded guys to give a little to get some information confirmation, including the number of thermistors in the case and where this coretemp comes from. A coworker summarized it well by saying that it's so tough trying to get confirmed information, because you get different reports from 3rd parties, and the actual designers/manufacturers want to keep as much information secret as possible. Sorry that this still isn't 100% concrete, but they finally gave in a bit and gave me a bit more information to work with this time, so now you (and I) have a clearer definition at least of what's going on temperature-wise.

In order to update this service request, please respond, leaving the service request reference intact.

Best regards,

AMD Global Customer Care

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

This email is a direct result of your contact with AMD Global Customer Care and not part of a campaign. There is no need to unsubscribe to this email as you will only be contacted again if you directly request another service from AMD Global Customer Care.

The contents of this message are provided for informational purposes only. AMD makes no representation or warranties with respect to the accuracy of the contents of the information provided, and reserves the right to change such information at any time, with or without notice.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________


Original Text


From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com
To: tech.support@amd.com
CC:
Sent: 05/16/12 12:44:16
Subject: RE: AMD Service Notice:{ticketno:[8200488157]}



I'll sum up what I've learned and deduced and tell me if it's makes sense and/or is correct. As you've stated the Tcase is a singular temperature taken at the top of the CPU (I'm assuming from a diode at the top of the die where it makes contact with the IHS?). What seems to me as a dead giveaway that Tcase is not being used by programs like HWmonitor is that they list seperate values for each of the cores that can be the same but usually differ from each other (usually by 1-3C). Are individual "core" temperatures taken from a diode within each core? Or is it mathmatically based off of something like Tjunction to give a "guesstimate" for each core? But clearly the standard assumption I see that says quote: "CPU Temp = Tjunction or true Junction Temperature (This reading is taken from the sensor fixed in CPU socket on Motherboard.)" is clearly wrong. I was also under the assumption that motherboards didn't use a "socket" diode anymore as well. Does all of that make sense?

Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:07:20 -0700
From: TECH.SUPPORT@AMD.COM
Subject: AMD Service Notice:{ticketno:[8200488157]}
To: stephen.simonsen@hotmail.com

From the author of the program "Core Temp" -
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710360&page=3
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest;7227762 
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
After K8, AMD changed the way their internal temperature reporting mechanism worked.
With Phenom Core Temp (and HWMonitor) users were introduced to very strange readings.
In AMD's technical documentation these readings are described as non-absolute values, that are used to thermally control cooling solutions, and monitor the temperature to prevent overheating.
Reading the reply that Bubba-Hotepp got from AMD it makes sense.
Basically neither of the values we get are actually 100% (or close enough) reliable. As we are still using chips on the motherboard to read and interpret the values given off the TCase sensors, and we're still not getting accurate values from the 'TCore' readings as well.

It's really hard for me to say which readings should be trusted, it's obvious that the readings given by Core Temp at default settings are too low, as they very often dip below ambient temperature. With many samples, it became apparent that in most cases the temperature difference between TCase and TCore readings is between 10 and 15C.
My personal opinion on this issue is simply to use whatever you prefer. For TCore readings it's simply suggested to set a +15C offset.

Here he's running a test of the 8150 using prime95 and setting the affinity to each individual core and taking a temp reading -
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest;7229945 
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Ok. I managed to get my hands on a 8150 and I'm running tests right now. So I thought to give a quick update.
Very interesting result already. When running Prime95 on all 8 threads the TCore and TCase temps are 18c apart. But when I set affinity to the last thread, TCase goes down while TCore shoots up and is actually higher than TCase.
If I set the affinity to the first thread, temperatures on TCore goes much lower than when the last thread was selected.
I'm gonna run this test over the other cores and see what the results are.
I have a feeling that this TCore sensor is located somewhere close to the last core/module, thus giving skewed temperature readings.
I'll let the pics do the talking:

Full load:
Capture003.png

Last core:
Capture002.png

First core:
Capture004.png

And his results -
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest;7229985 
Here are the final readings:
aff 7 = tcase 57/tcore 61
aff 6 = tcase 56/tcore 61
aff 5 = tcase 55/tcore 58
aff 4 = tcase 55/tcore 58
aff 3 = tcase 57/tcore 52
aff 2 = tcase 57/tcore 52
aff 1 = tcase 55/tcore 49
aff 0 = tcase 54/tcore 49
All = tcase 71/tcore 52

@ trents:
I changed Prime95's affinity to force it to run on a certain core rather than have it run on all of them.
Core Temp manages affinity internally, and you shouldn't play with it, as it might give you wrong readings.
Now, there is only 1 sensor in the chip, HWMonitor lists all of the cores to prevent confusion in users. And the only reason that you sometimes catch different readings between cores is due to the delay at which each of the readings is taken.
In the case of AMD processors, affinity does not matter for temperature readings, as it is located in a mapped memory space and not in the MSRs.
post #4802 of 8112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

Core temps are basically useless (unless you add a rough +16C to give you a closer approximation to what Tcase is) on AMD CPU's. AMD changed how the temperatures are derived starting with the K8's. "Tcore" is derived by a formula using the Tcase thermistors on the die package (not the die itself) to give an approximation of the "core" temp. All AMD "maximum operating temperatures" are listed as "Tcase max" not "Tcore max". In other words if your CPU's max temp limit is 70C (for the 4100) and you're using "core temps" as your reading, your "core temps" could read 65C and you believe you're 5C below the limit when in reality your Tcase temp will be more in the area of 80-82C and you've passed the limit by a large margin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

The OP is right on some counts in that thread and wrong on some others. He's correct when he says that the core temps "TCore" are not "real" temperatures but are derived mathmatically (guesstimates basically) based on the TCase thermistors in the die package. "CPU Temp" is the signal that the MB bios receives from the CPU that is the TCase reading. TCase is an "average" of the thermistors that are spread across the die package and TCase is the temperature that AMD refers to when it publishes the "maximum operating temperature". The socket temp diode/thermistor is only used IF the CPU for some reason stops sending the TCase signal or it's absent entirely. Think of it as a "failsafe" temp reading that is used if the MB fails to receive temp outputs from the CPU.

I hear yah but here is letter you received: AMD tech 2012 (Click to show)
From: TECH.SUPPORT@AMD.COM

Sent: Thu 5/17/12 8:14 AM

To: xxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com


Dear Stephen,

Your service request : SR #{ticketno:[8200488157]} has been reviewed and updated.

Response and Service Request History:

You pretty much nailed it. I was able to get a little more info from the embedded team into borderline-proprietary information, so I'll try to elaborate on what you understood. TCase for AMD processors comes from a few thermistors (not one, apparently, just found that out) inside the processor case (at the bottom, where the pins are), connecting down to the CPU via the Junction. There are always more than 1 (at least 2, up to 6-8 potentially, but no elaboration given on how many per model), but the TCase temperature is determined by averaging those values out, done by the processor. TJunction is the temperature where the pins hit the board, and is usually a couple degrees cooler as all 940/941 pins aren't all firing at the same exact time, and not always evenly distributed when only 400 are on at one time.
TCore is actually mathematically guessed based on the varying TCase values, as there is no way to get a diode on top of the cores inside the processor, and putting it underneath the cores (between the bottom of the case and the bottom of the cores, which hover on a little silicon platform) would yield an inaccurate reading. As such, optimizing the core space on the wafers by keeping thermistors off, they just mathematically extrapolate the core temperature from the TCase values, based on core location on the processor and the values retrieved in that general area, plus some mathematical calculations.
TJunction is still a diode on the board, under the processor, which most boards still have, just in case the TCase values (or TJunction value given by Intel processors) are wrong for whatever reason. Though in some cases, TJunction can be off by as much as 20F, so it's obviously not an ideal value. Still, there are a lot of board manufacturers who will still include it, regardless of how necessary, because it's how they've always done things, and if there are problems with new processors or broken thermistors, they can still report a temperature, even if it's not the most accurate.

Sorry for the misinformation about the cores, I really had to get the embedded guys to give a little to get some information confirmation, including the number of thermistors in the case and where this coretemp comes from. A coworker summarized it well by saying that it's so tough trying to get confirmed information, because you get different reports from 3rd parties, and the actual designers/manufacturers want to keep as much information secret as possible. Sorry that this still isn't 100% concrete, but they finally gave in a bit and gave me a bit more information to work with this time, so now you (and I) have a clearer definition at least of what's going on temperature-wise.

In order to update this service request, please respond, leaving the service request reference intact.

Best regards,

AMD Global Customer Care

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

This email is a direct result of your contact with AMD Global Customer Care and not part of a campaign. There is no need to unsubscribe to this email as you will only be contacted again if you directly request another service from AMD Global Customer Care.
and here is a letter from ALUCARDVPR thread: AMD tech 2011 (Click to show)
I see so many people going back and forth about The X6 and their faulty core temps. Seeing as I own a 1090t i decided to contact amd and ask them what the deal was with with the temps, and my reply was quite astonishing.

Paul~

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I just recently had your email forwarded to my department.

Concerning your question regarding the temperatures with your processor. (1090) the maximum temperature threshold is 62 Celsius which set for the internal die (core) temperature of the chip. The core temperatures have an equational offset to determine temperature which equalizes at about 45 Celsius thus giving you more accurate readings at peak temperatures. The hindrance in this is the sub ambient idle temperature readings you speak of.

The silicon and adhesives used in manufacturing these processors has a peak temperature rating of 97+ Celsius before any form of degradation will take place. The processor also has a thermal shut off safe guard in place that shuts the processor down at 90 Celsius.

The Cpu temperature is read form a sensor embedded within the socket of your motherboard causing about a 7-10 Celsius variance form the actual Cpu temperature, which may be what you are reading about on the net.

You can use an application called AMD overdrive, that will allow you to monitor your temperatures accurately.

As long as your core temperature has not exceeded the high side of the 60 degree mark for extended periods of time you should be ok. 62 degrees holds a generous safety net to begin with.

I hope I was able to answer your questions, If you have any more inquiries don't hesitate to contact us.


Thank You

Alex Cromwell
Senior Technology Director
Advanced Micro Devices
Fort Collins, Colorado
2950 East Harmony Road
Suite 300
Fort Collins, CO
80528-9558

So as I am sure you have read this before this is nothing new to you, but i post both letters because I am here on OCN in the pursuit of maximum speed for my dollar with any current CPU I own. Forgive me if I am hard to convince even with letters from AMD. One side of says I want more speed and performance so go with the core temp, another side of me says go with the safer temps as what seems to good to be true with core temps is likely just that, wrong...thereby using cpu temp.

Sorry posted this before I saw your last post.
Edited by ryan w - 6/27/12 at 1:23pm
 
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post #4803 of 8112
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan w View Post

Here is the specs on your FX-4100 Max core temp limit is 70 C I would shoot for 60-65c when running prime for 24/7 use. Or if you go by Bubbas Tcase theory than TMPIN1
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Bulldozer/AMD-FX-Series%20FX-4100.html
However not until you install these:http://www.enzotechnology.com/mos-c1.htm buy 2 packs and install them on each mosfet for the cpu power
Thanks i will look into buying some of these as i live in the uk i will get some off of ebay biggrin.gif
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post #4804 of 8112
Got to go to work but need some explanation? why the variance in core temps tcore reading vs HWmonitors core reading of each core? I ran this test with different results i'll post screenshoots in the morning FYI
 
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post #4805 of 8112
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan w View Post

Got to go to work but need some explanation? why the variance in core temps tcore reading vs HWmonitors core reading of each core? I ran this test with different results i'll post screenshoots in the morning FYI

The variance is because as the Tech Rep explained (after getting the embedded engineers to finally disclose some info) "Tcore" is derived by taking the nearest "Tcase" thermistor to that individual core and using a formula to "approximate" the temp and distance to that thermistor can affect that reading as "the coolest" showed. That makes it very unreliable to use as a standard for "maximum operating temperature". Now, IF the "letter" that ALUCARDVPR posted is in fact genuine I find it interesting that a "Senior Technology Director" seems to be so out of touch with the way his own company designs their CPU's. I've posted that letter in an email to the Tech Rep to get his take on it (for the emails I've posted feel free to contact AMD and use the "case" number as a reference).

Now let's look at the "AMD Family 10H Power and Thermal Data Sheet" posted on AMD's website. http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/43375.pdf

Look at the tables starting on page 17 and note that they don't use "Tcore Max" or "Tjunction Max" (the thermistor in the socket on the MB is "Tjunction") but instead use "Tcase Max".

Now let's look at the K7 (AMD Athlon, which is as the author of "Core Temp" stated before they changed the way temps were taken with K8).
http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/24228.pdf

It only mentions 1 temp diode which resides in the socket of the motherboard which it refers to as the "on board" sensor and gives the following note -

Note: The temperature sensor on the motherboard may not provide an accurate reading of the
thermal diode. Be sure that the on-board temperature sensor uses dual-sourcing currents.
Single-sourcing current does not provide suitable accuracy for thermal testing.
Edited by Bubba Hotepp - 6/27/12 at 1:53pm
post #4806 of 8112
Thread Starter 
Sorry to kinda throw this into what looks like an interesting conversation:

I have been out of town for a while, so that is why i haven't updated anything in a couple weeks.

When I get back, I'll update the list. Thank you for your patience.
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post #4807 of 8112
Right on It will be interesting to the see the response he has about a senior director stating core temps are to be followed, especially after the information you have provided us.

Had to quote this as this defined the meanings more clearly for me compared to reading the technical documents section to section.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

Tctl = Not an actual reading but a point of reference. AMD's cliff notes explanatiion -
"As for Tctl, there is a technical definition at http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/41256.pdf on page 73 that (tries to) explain it. As a very crude Cole's Notes version, it doesn't measure temperature as much as it is a sliding scale that refers to the processor's current temperature as it relates to the temperature at which the cooling fan has to get to 100% to hit the maximum case temperature (TCaseMax)." (hence the use of "control" ctl in the name)
Tcore = Again not an actual physical reading but a reading derived by taking the closest thermistors (Tcase thermistors) on the die package (not on the die itself but in the package itself that the die sits on) and using a formula to derive the approximate "core" temp. It's for that reason it's not used as a "maximum operating temp".
Tjunction = The thermistor on the motherboard underneath the socket where the pins from the CPU make contact (hence the name "junction"). Also not an accurate way of measuring the temperature of the CPU which is why they stopped using it as a basis of that with the K7 CPU's (Athlon).
Tcase = A "CPU Temp" output from the CPU itself. This started with the K8 architecture. It's taken from the thermistors on the die package. As AMD explains "There are always more than 1 (at least 2, up to 6-8 potentially, but no elaboration given on how many per model), but the TCase temperature is determined by averaging those values out, done by the processor". It gives an "average" value for the whole CPU die and not just a reading of individual cores. Probably the reason why AMD uses this for the "maximum operating temperature" (Tcase max) as just reading the "cores" ignores other potential hot spots on the CPU (the CPU/NB, IGP etc). (hence the use of the "case" in the name).

Thanks for your work!

I would love to see some more 15h family documentation released by amd, very little is present on the developer page, and no power and thermal data sheet

This is a side note from the core vs case discussion. This test just shows different results than coolest results. Granted different clocks, multipliers, voltages, board, various bios settings, heatsink, TIM etc....

Before I went to work I was scratching my head at the posts that stated that temps varied depending on affinity per core, and was noticing some perceived data discrepancies in the testing results. So I did my own test with alternate results. My purpose was to see why core temps cpu #0 reading and HWmonitors core 0 differed greatly in some of the tests. In running Prime 95 I tested all cores, core 7, core 0, and core 3. My data stayed consistent and did not show a variance between core readings.

Affinity testing

All cores All Cores (Click to show)
375
Core 7 Core 7 (Click to show)
375
Core 0 Core 0 (Click to show)
375
Core 3 Core 3 (Click to show)
375

Long and the short of it I was unable to determine a location of a thermistor on die by using affinity. Discovered no variance between core temp and HWmonitor core readings, showed all cores giving 8c difference between tcase and tcore hope i am using these terms correctly, and with affinity set tcase and tcore are very close together. So is a averaging occurring to calculate the core temp in the case when all cores are running? even though when testing individual cores the difference is minimal?

Edit: oh and I could have let prime longer may have raised the temps +2 across the board, as with this bios OC setting Prime95 temps top out at 61c CPU temp
Edited by ryan w - 6/28/12 at 2:42am
 
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post #4808 of 8112
What's the highest memory frequency the FX can run 'stable' at?

I've got 2332mhz 100% stable with Samsung 30nm memory, and I'm working on 2400mhz now, I've got screenshots at over 2600.

I find it interesting that at 2400 (11-11-11) my system benches and 'feels' faster than at 1600 (7-7-7), seems to go against the old saying about AMD's liking tighter timings.
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post #4809 of 8112
Thread Starter 
FX doesn't like low timings as much as PhII did.

FX prefers higher frequencies.

2400 cl9 is probably better for FX than 1600 CL7
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post #4810 of 8112
Quote:
Originally Posted by reflex99 View Post

FX doesn't like low timings as much as PhII did.
FX prefers higher frequencies.
2400 cl9 is probably better for FX than 1600 CL7

Thanks.

Has anyone seen this cpu do 2400mhz+ (memory) stable? I've googled and googled and can't find anything.

So far 2332 seems to be my limit with this board and ram, but of course there are always more settings to try...it'd be nice to know if I have reached the IMC limit or not.
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