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[TR] Faster-than-Light Neutrino Puzzle Claimed Solved by Special Relativity - Page 2

post #11 of 35
Quote:
If it stands up, this episode will be laden with irony. Far from breaking Einstein's theory of relatively, the faster-than-light measurement will turn out to be another confirmation of it.
Now that's ironic.
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post #12 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiNet View Post
They understood what impact would it make to world as we know it and just said "it was error"...

Just think how many books would be needing rewriting... all theories... just imagine what would it do to schools/universities
That's not how science works. Science doesn't care how inconvenient a discovery is, science is concerned with what is factual.

If someone could prove they found a rabbit skeleton from the Cambrian era, the scientific community wouldn't say "oh, that doesn't agree with our current hypotheses and theories, we're not going to count it" I'm sure there are hundred+ year old chemistry books that still adhere to Dalton's atomic theories that don't factor in isotopes or subatomic particles, but look at what happened-we found out he wasn't totally right and changed it. It's how science has always worked and always will work.

that is the polar opposite of how science works. If the neutrino claim were to be proven true, the scientific community would adjust their views accordingly.

"Science adjusts its beliefs based on what’s observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt1288 View Post
Before every goes "oh, well that solves it". Keep in mind what it says at the end:


Just because one scientist says he's solved it, doesn't immediately mean he's right (although it is a pretty convincing argument).
exactly. None of this "closes the case". This is just a new observation to take into consideration when considering the recent neutrino fiasco.
Edited by xPrestonn - 10/14/11 at 2:23pm
    
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post #13 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiNet View Post
They understood what impact would it make to world as we know it and just said "it was error"...

Just think how many books would be needing rewriting... all theories... just imagine what would it do to schools/universities
So? Isn't it better for them to teach what's true than to teach what's false? I mean they can't just ignore the laws of physics and teach something what's totally wrong. Even if it means rewriting the books, so rewrite the damn books who cares.
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post #14 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodlebro View Post
Einstein was never once proven wrong.

Neutrinos are subatomic particles. They follow the quantum mechanics model, NOT the conventional model all of you learned in school.

Quantum mechanics already predicted this, so this is reassurance. It doesn't disprove a damn thing.
A) Subatomic particles still obey general relativity under a lot of scenarios, but there are a lot of cases that general relativity just can not explain what goes on. To say that subatomic particles don't follow 'the conventional model (GR?)' is just wrong.

B) QM predicts neutrinos to travel fast then c?
I know it supports quantum entanglement and the possibility of ftl communication, wasn't aware anything specifically started that neutrinos should be traveling ftl.

C) The speed of light in GR is pretty much a barrier, you can get massive particles pretty much infinity close to it, but never achieve it because of length contraction and relativistic mass change. Basically the closer to c that a particle is going, the more difficult it is to accelerate further. That being said, GR does allow particles to travel ftl, assuming they ALWAYS travel faster than light. So, if this is the case where neutrinos are traveling ftl, it will be another scenario where GR does not hold and will take some explaining.

EDIT: I am not a physics major so take what I say with a grain of salt

Edited by [PWN]Schubie - 10/14/11 at 5:44pm
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post #15 of 35
Cool, now my physics degree isn't useless!

I think the general consensus anyway was that it was a mistake, even by the team who found it. They submitted it for peer review very much with the attitude "uhh, we don't know what we did wrong, you all have a look!"

This makes sense, although I'm sure there are a variety of possible errors with equipment or assumptions that might provide the erroneous result.
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post #16 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by [PWN]Schubie View Post
A) Subatomic particles still obey general relativity under a lot of scenarios, but there are a lot of cases that general relativity just can not explain what goes on. To say that subatomic particles don't follow 'the conventional model (GR?)' is just wrong.

B) QM predicts neutrinos to travel fast then c?
I know it supports quantum entanglement and the possibility of ftl communication, wasn't aware anything specifically started that neutrinos should be traveling ftl.

C) The speed of light in GR is pretty much a barrier, you can get massive particles pretty much infinity close to it, but never achieve it because of length contraction and relativistic mass change. Basically the closer to c that a particle is going, the more difficult it is to accelerate further. That being said, GR does allow particles to travel ftl, assuming they ALWAYS travel faster than light. So, if this is the case where neutrinos are traveling ftl, it will be another scenario where GR does not hold and will take some explaining.

EDIT: I am not a physics major so take what I say with a grain of salt
A) Neutrinos are subatomic particles. Thus they follow the quantum mechanics model. It's that simple.

B) The QM predicts that subatomic particles can move faster than the speed of light. This is what was meant.

I am studying to become a physics major.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpii View Post
Cool, now my physics degree isn't useless!

I think the general consensus anyway was that it was a mistake, even by the team who found it. They submitted it for peer review very much with the attitude "uhh, we don't know what we did wrong, you all have a look!"

This makes sense, although I'm sure there are a variety of possible errors with equipment or assumptions that might provide the erroneous result.
You, sir, are an abomination to the physics world. Your degree is never useless.
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post #17 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpii View Post
Cool, now my physics degree isn't useless!

I think the general consensus anyway was that it was a mistake, even by the team who found it. They submitted it for peer review very much with the attitude "uhh, we don't know what we did wrong, you all have a look!"

This makes sense, although I'm sure there are a variety of possible errors with equipment or assumptions that might provide the erroneous result.
I read physics degree and get all giddy like a schoolgirl...

I have huge respect for anyone who can see themselves through to the end of a degree like that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodlebro View Post

I am studying to become a physics major.
and the same for you...

Just a question, I'm currently in 11th grade taking trig/pre calc/ and trying to self-teach stats and calculus off to the side, are there any other classes that you guys would recommend I try and get into ASAP to set myself up on that path?
Edited by xPrestonn - 10/14/11 at 7:32pm
    
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post #18 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodlebro View Post
A) Neutrinos are subatomic particles. Thus they follow the quantum mechanics model. It's that simple.

B) The QM predicts that subatomic particles can move faster than the speed of light. This is what was meant.

I am studying to become a physics major.
A) No, they still experience relativistic effects that is not explained via quantum mechanics, unfortunately for some scenarios, one theory is not sufficient to describe what is happening. For Example, subatomic particles can still experience time dilation. Again, it isn't as straight forward as "it's small, QM it is". If things were that clear cut, there would not be a need to develop new theories, and there are a lot in the works right now. String theory alone has a ton of subsidiaries, quantum field theory, quantum loop gravity and the list goes on.

B)

And congrats, I have taken a slew of physics courses post secondary, some of my favorite classes. What year are you in?

Edited by [PWN]Schubie - 10/14/11 at 7:35pm
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post #19 of 35
Quote:
The result has sent a ripple of excitement through the physics community. Since then, more than 80 papers have appeared on the arXiv attempting to debunk or explain the effect. It's fair to say, however, that the general feeling is that the OPERA team must have overclocked something.
Fixed.
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post #20 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodlebro View Post
You, sir, are an abomination to the physics world. Your degree is never useless.
... I was joking...

And it's not predicted that subatomic particles can travel faster than the speed of light. Which papers say that? (apart from the most recent one)

I think you need to keep studying for that physics major, as it doesn't seem that you're there yet...
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