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[TR] Faster-than-Light Neutrino Puzzle Claimed Solved by Special Relativity - Page 3

post #21 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by [PWN]Schubie View Post
A) No, they still experience relativistic effects that is not explained via quantum mechanics, unfortunately for some scenarios, one theory is not sufficient to describe what is happening. For Example, subatomic particles can still experience time dilation. Again, it isn't as straight forward as "it's small, QM it is". If things were that clear cut, there would not be a need to develop new theories, and there are a lot in the works right now. String theory alone has a ton of subsidiaries, quantum field theory, quantum loop gravity and the list goes on.

B)
Remember, just because neutrino's appear to be traveling at superluminal speeds, doesn't mean they are violating relativity if you believe string and M theory are correct and that the neutrino's are traveling through other dimensions at least part of the way.

I posted this back in the original thread on the discovery a while back...

Doing an infinite number of things simultaneously, or how quantum mechanics really screws with your head.
Quote:
I'm sure all of you have heard of Young's double slit experiment. You shine a light through a small slit you get a single band (particle behavior of light). You expect that when you shine the light through 2 slits you get 2 bands. Yet, you don't, you get a whole ton of bands instead.

This is the traditional experiment for the wave nature of light.

Quantum mechanics takes this further by addressing the troubling issue that in young's double slit experiment, if you modify the experiment to determine which slit an electron goes through, you actually modify the result, making the experiment show 2 bands appear as opposed to the many.

This is a fundamental contradiction, how have we eliminated the wave behavior of light suddenly? Quantum mechanics actually states that the electron you shot out doesn't just go through 1 slit, it actually comes back and goes through the other slit as well. In fact, every single one of the infinite possible trajectories are taken by the electron.

The final location of the electron is a culmination of all the infinite trajectories the electron has taken to get to its destinations and is known as Feynman's sum over paths approach to quantum mechanics.

In fact, this is one of the few quantum mechanical theories that applies to classical physics. If you do the math and use objects like planets, you'll find the sum over paths approach results in the same trajectory calculation as traditional physics. The difference is that in objects above plancks constant the math actually comes out so that all but 1 trajectory cancel each other out, leaving us with the one classical physics calculated.

The issue is that at the quantum level, these infinite other possible paths do NOT cancel each other out, and therefor affect the final location of the electron shot through the slit.
The implication here is that electrons travel over an infinite number of paths simultaneously, which would require faster than light to speed to achieve.
Granted the example is more a description of the lack of locality of location in quantum mechanics (as quantum spin teleportation also achieves this), but it does serve as a basis for FTL quantum level behavior.
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post #22 of 35
As for the OP, during the original press conference it was actually specifically asked by the audience whether or not they accounted for relativistic affects of the clocks on the GPS. They answered yes.
See video http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1384486
It was during the Q and A at the end.

In fact, what most people don't realize (and apparently the writers of the blog) is that GPS software automatically accounts for relativistic effects in order to be accurate, it's one of the cases where relativity plays a huge role in our every day lives.

It would be a pretty unlikely, and embarrassing situation if the guys at CERN claim they took into account relativistic affects on the GPS and in actuality forgot to.
Edited by banthracis - 10/15/11 at 12:46pm
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post #23 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by banthracis View Post
As for the OP, during the original press conference it was actually specifically asked by the audience whether or not they accounted for relativistic affects of the clocks on the GPS. They answered yes.
See video http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1384486
It was during the Q and A at the end.

In fact, what most people don't realize (and apparently the writers of the blog) is that GPS software automatically accounts for relativistic effects in order to be accurate, it's one of the cases where relativity plays a huge role in our every day lives.

It would be a pretty unlikely, and embarrassing situation if the guys at CERN claim they took into account relativistic affects on the GPS and in actuality forgot to.

The article is not saying SR has been overlooked, it's saying a secondary SR effect has been overlooked.

GPS is corrected for SR, but it's corrected in such a way to work at any position on the ground, not for comparing two different positions on the ground.

The velocity of the satellite relative to the velocity of the surface of the earth is accounted for, but what it's talking about is the relative velocities of the satellites and the two specific points of reference on the surface of the earth, and the differences there causing the timing problem.
Edited by xPrestonn - 10/15/11 at 1:34pm
    
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post #24 of 35
http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Matter_Engine

Here's what we need to be focusing on.
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post #25 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timlander View Post
Well now isn't that a hoot. So we went from Einstein being totally wrong in his theories, to actually reproving his theories again. Good one. lol
Einstein's theory isn't still proven correct. His is just close. Quantum physics is what will have the best answer, as we still have better stuff out there than E=MC2
    
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post #26 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthraxinsoup View Post
Einstein's theory isn't still proven correct. His is just close. Quantum physics is what will have the best answer, as we still have better stuff out there than E=MC2
No theory ever becomes more than a theory. There are no absolute truths in science.

Gravity is still only a theory, evolution is still only a theory, relativity is still only a theory, etc.

to varying degrees, they are all fairly bulletproof as far as validity goes with the exception of relativity recently coming under some scrutiny because of this neutrino business.

oh and uh...inb4creationists
    
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post #27 of 35
Quote:
Just a question, I'm currently in 11th grade taking trig/pre calc/ and trying to self-teach stats and calculus off to the side, are there any other classes that you guys would recommend I try and get into ASAP to set myself up on that path?
I'm minoring in physics alongside engineering. Basically, take calc as fast as you can, and avoid any algebra/trig based physics classes. They are a waste of time. If you can take AP Physics in highschool, that's a calculus based class, and will set you up far better for the future. The algebra/trig based classes do not.
    
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post #28 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by xPrestonn View Post
No theory ever becomes more than a theory. There are no absolute truths in science.

Gravity is still only a theory, evolution is still only a theory, relativity is still only a theory, etc.

to varying degrees, they are all fairly bulletproof as far as validity goes with the exception of relativity recently coming under some scrutiny because of this neutrino business.

oh and uh...inb4creationists
Haha
    
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post #29 of 35
Here is my problem with the debunking.

If you send a neutrino on a given velocity and you send a light beam on the same velocity. At no point can the neutrino reach the destination before the light beam.

Now in the last 3 years, they have sent 16,000 neutrinos on their way, on average, over the 16,000, they have the average speed of 60 nanoseconds faster then light.

We are not talking 1 experiment. We are not talking one set of data. We are also talking the same equipment was used to measure the speed of light. If it was off by the speed of the neutrinos, it would also be off for the speed of light.

So it is more then systemic error. Can not be waved away with relativity, relativity only works on non quantum sized particles.

In saying all that, I doubt we could detect a mass particle traveling faster then the speed of light.
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post #30 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by E_man View Post
I'm minoring in physics alongside engineering. Basically, take calc as fast as you can, and avoid any algebra/trig based physics classes. They are a waste of time. If you can take AP Physics in highschool, that's a calculus based class, and will set you up far better for the future. The algebra/trig based classes do not.
thanks for the info. I'll have to talk to my guidance counselor as to whether or not they are trig/alg based.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somenamehere View Post
Haha
They always strike when you least expect it....
    
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