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[egmnow] Valve Talks Up Source Engine 2 - Page 16

post #151 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanshaft View Post
if anyone says source looks good you are crazy console lovers
compare portal2 to css
SAME FREAKIN THING YET ITS BEEN 7YEARS
cs:go looks worse then source even -.- come on valve get a new engine or license someone elses


CS:S was just updated last year to the 2010 variation of the Source engine. Even still, Portal 2 looked a lot better than CS:S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post
Look at CDProject a small company on a tiny budget created the witcher 2, a game that had a great story, gameplay and offered stunning visuals. but valve fanboys say what valve is doing is enough. I honestly dont think valve cares about making games anymore, release the occasional game which is severely lacking quality and appeal compared to their old school titles just to make people happy. They are more content with steam revenue at this point.
I agree, somewhat. Compared to games like HL1 and HL2, the games Valve releases these days still have the same quality but lack in scope. As a $50 game Portal 2 did not nearly have the kind of scope that HL2 did.

I know Valve is trying to figure out the best method of distributing a title, but I feel releasing titles on an episodic or "service" basis really kills the immersion and magic. I would rather have an uninterrupted full title with sequels (ex. HL1, HL2) than a title split into mini episodes (ex. EP1, EP2, Portal 1, Portal 2.)
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post #152 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by sub50hz View Post
Do they really need to? Source can look very modern while running on lesser hardware, has an excellent library of mod tools and is generally quite optimized. I doubt many fans of Valve games are itching for some GPU-hungry DX11 engine when the content of said games eclipses any need for graphical engine improvement.
Even with DX11 they can just update source to run on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UbNub View Post
What I got from the article is they are basicly going to have a new engine but with the same tools so it isn't what others would consider a new engine.
More like they update both at the same time, think like Arch Linux vs Ubuntu, one has a release that comes out every 6 months or so, but the others a rolling release, so even an install from like 2007 still has all the features, etc of the new one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post
Its funny how people on this site rip COD apart for this very reason, yet valve is allowed a free pass. While the source engine has aged well, it does look obsolete compared to newer engines today.
The difference being Valve actually update their engine, CoD adds crap all between releases, but compare HL2 to Portal 2, biiig difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurzz View Post
Valve made an engine that almost anyone can run while still looking great. Not to mention, why would they need to invest the time to just make a new engine when they can just keep updating their current one.

I would imagine they have been updating the engine around their hardware survey, not around the latest and greatest.
This is probably true, there's definitely improvements but I'd imagine once the DX10 markets gone past 90% they'll add DX10 support to Source, same with DX11.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedEarth View Post
I think this will be one of the initial nails in the coffin for Valve in terms of being a developer. They seem to be ok with just sitting on the back burner and drip feeding. They did it with the HL episodes and they aren't even working on HL3 because non of their employees 'want to.' Now they don't 'want to' release a new engine either. You either innovate and move on, or you get lost in the wake of your competitors success, I'm not sure just how long Valve can keep hanging on, even their hardcore base of fans are getting highly agitated, myself included.

Personally I don't care about a new engine, all of Valves games look great. Sure they don't look like Crysis, but the difference in magnitude in terms of power requirements isn't worth the upgrade. Portal 2 looks awesome and runs on mediocre hardware, Crysis looks awesome but needs high end hardware, that's the difference.

In terms of graphical prowess I think the Source engine looks awesome even by today's standards, it may not be a graphical innovator, nor a graphical leader but it still looks damn good. The problem with Valve is that they are coasting off former glory. There's on HL3 in sight, and there are only so many rehashes of Portal and Left 4 Dead that you can do before they become a stagnant entity like COD.

They need to pick that ball back up and carry on innovating if they want to stay in the game, or maybe Valve are just happy with being a distributor these days.
Exactly, and Valve (Plus Source) are insanely good in (IMO anyway) the most important part of graphical quality which is art style, it's why Minecraft actually looks good if you're not shallow to just go "NO HDR, NO DX10, 16x16 TEXTURES"

Keep in mind, Source was made from the start to be modular and easily updated, its likely Valve can just update one bit at a time and still look amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by girugamesh View Post
True. In fact, IMO, IW Engine > Source.

CoD games look fairly good, "2007-ish", but still better than Source's "2004-ish" graphics.
I'm not sure what you were playing in 2004, but the graphics certainly did not look as good as Portal 2.

HL2, I'll give you that...But that came out in 2004.
It's insane to not see that the Source engines slow updates actually have improved it, it's just like people getting antsy over the lack of an iPhone 5 when the differences would quite literally be the case and name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post
ok is the engine optimized because it uses old-2004-tech and runs at 300 fps? is that your definition of optimization?

also when did they ever add new graphical effects and capabilities??
portal 2 is probably the ONLY AAA game released in 2011 that does not have ambient occlusion, HDR, large level without constant loading in-between, realistic lighting,...

in fact i'm surprised portal 2 isn't called a "console-port" because some of the ground textures in there are very nasty.
Seriously, 2004 tech? You do realize that it's been updated in quite a few times?

And no HDR...? Did you even look in the settings? I haven't got Portal 2, but I know that TF2 does have HDR. And Half Life Lost Coast (The entire point of it was to showcase HDR effects)...

Even a quick search shows that it does have HDR.

As for the large level things...Have you even played L4D2?

And Source is very optimized, you're obviously relatively new to the PC game if you don't realize that. (Try running Crysis on low on integrated graphics/old graphics, Source will look better and run better.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coma View Post
No company makes "new" engines... they're all doing the very same thing Valve does - they're improving their current engine. The only difference is Valve doesn't add numbers after the name whenever they add a major feature, while others do.
QFT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
When Day of Defeat Source came out. Shaders were COMPLETELY re-designed. Nope, nothing new there.

When Orange Box came out. Threaded particle system. Nope, no enhancements there either.

Also with Orange Box: Facial animations. Nope, nothing new.

Support for more cores: No extra capabilities added.

I guess none of that falls under "new effects" nor "new capabilities."

Exactly, if they numbered their releases like say, Unreal do, we'd be at Source 3 at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post
portal barely use 30% of my CPU (running stock) so it use like a full core and about 5% of a 2nd core. yea i suppose that count as "support for one more core"

the improvements aren't as vast as you may imagine. also valve particle system simply sucks, don't even get me into that. the smokes and fire, when they touch the ground, make these ugly unrealistic line and they do not blend into the picture (they are not soft particles). very poor techniques if you ask me.

valve's particles is the left picture.

oh and exactly WHEN were these "capabilities" added? maybe 4 years in the past?
does portal 2, lastest valve game in 2011, use any of them?
Yes?

And as for multiple core support, maybe...Just maybe...That's because its optimized so it doesn't need to use much of your CPU?

There is true multicore support though, you have to enable MultiCore rendering in the options, I know it works because it can max out my Phenom II when I leave all GPU options at lowest to bottleneck the CPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedEarth View Post
Oh boy, you really caught me out there! I mean it's not like some of today's demanding games have a decent storyline so why would I ever need a decent GPU!?

Deus Ex 3
Dead Space 2
Batman Arkham City
GTA IV
STALKER series
The Witcher series

All of which have a solid storyline and very good game play, all of which require a half decent GPU @ 1920 x 1080.

I DO NOT play a game for its graphical prowess, I play a game because of its story line, if it so happens to have 'super duper' awesome graphics then that's just a bonus. My GPU is simply there to make sure that I can play any game I desire at the resolution I have available.

I have no idea how you even came to such a conclusion. Simply because I own a graphics card does not mean I care about graphics at all, it means I care about the fluidity of my game play.
QFT, I only got my GTX 470 because it came for AU$200 with a waterblock. (ie. Around the price of a non Ti 560)

Quote:
Originally Posted by homestyle View Post
Valve uses the same engine over and over again, the fanboys don't care.

Activision uses the same engine and haters come out of the woodwork.
Valve actually update their engine, Activision don't.

Man, OCN is full of people who just comment and don't read, first with people working out why Bulldozer is so slow and if its the architecture or if its a problem with Zambezi (People going IT STILL SUCKS ITS GONNA BE CRAP NO MATTER WHAT STOP MAKING EXCUSES) and now this? Geez.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post
^this.
300 fps > omg so optimized!!
13 fps > *** IS THIS UNOPTIMIZED GARBAGE??!!!
even though the 13 fps picture looks miles ahead..


well are they really updating it at all?
they're not even using DX10. stil on 9.0c
and their textures are some of the worst i've ever seen in 2011 AAA titles.
Turn Crysis to minimum settings, it looks about on par with a PS2 game. And still runs like crap, I was playing Crysis on minimum with a 6800GS when it came out, it was a crap game all in all without the graphics, it looked worse than half the PS2 games I could emulate quite happily and with higher FPS on that same rig.

Also, if its optimized, why are there mods that make it look way better in the same FPS range?
And why is there an optimization mod?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theturbofd View Post
You didn't know? If you can't run it then its clearly either a crappy console port or unoptimized. .
Easy test, find an engine that is optimized (Eg. Source) and reduce the settings to match that games graphical quality.
Does it run slower? Unoptimized.
Does it run faster? Optimized.

Alternatively, find an optimization mod...Chances are its unoptimized then.

Oblivion/Fallout3 and NV, Minecraft, Crysis 2 (Tessellated water under the city, really?) and quite a few games aren't optimized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFL Replica View Post
On the topic of the source engine, L4D2 is also a major achievement when you consider the sheer number of zombies and particle effects on the screen. Valve made it happen with clever tricks to make the zombies look more varied without requiring huge amounts of GPU memory. They had to work with a tightly enforced memory budget and that is what caused them to look for alternatives ways to make the most out of what they have.

If source has one weakness it's dynamic lighting. Unlike UE3 which absolutely loves dynamic lights, source chokes rather quickly. You should like source games for allowing you to use conventional AA instead of the blurry post processing antialiasing methods that most modern engines force you to use. So its greatest weakness is also one of its strengths.
This is also true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
Only PC elitists and Tech nerds care about the Dx version. 99% of the awesomeness you see from Dx 11 titles comes from Dx 9 effects. In fact, i think that devs just throw in a pitiful amount of Dx 11 in their games just to shut guys like you up.

And since you don't know, using Dx 10 is practically pointless for most devs since it offers little to nothing in the way of graphical improvements. Dx 10.1 is supposed to make programming easier but since devs have to include Dx 9 for 50% of PC gamers that have it, it's pointless extra work. Dx 11 offers real improvement but most Dx 11 GPUs aren't strong enough to use it in a full game and only 5-7% of gamers can play Dx11 anyway.

I still anticipate a new engine from Valve when a new console comes out. ANY engine maker who comes out with a new engine before then is very short sighted.
DX11 and DX10 are all about optimization of the API to actually use the GPU better, so devs can fit more polygons, larger textures, etc into the same average GPU. (Eg. So games will look better by letting developers put more polygons and the like, if DX11 was utilized fully with no DX9 at all on say, a GTX 460, it'd look tonnes better than a DX9 version of the same game on that same card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Killer View Post
i'm with you here, pc gamers look down on consoles because console games will always have worse graphics than pc but then on the other hand those same people will go "screw graphics, just give us better gameplay".

pick a side, people.
The reason I hate consoles is the controllers and because devs always try to fit as much graphical quality as they can, meaning the game starts to chug quite easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanshaft View Post
if anyone says source looks good you are crazy console lovers
compare portal2 to css
SAME FREAKIN THING YET ITS BEEN 7YEARS
cs:go looks worse then source even -.- come on valve get a new engine or license someone elses
Are you serious? You must be blind.

I seriously think if HL3 had a Source 2, that turned out to be just Source with one new major feature, all the people complaining here would be like "OH IT LOOKS SO MUCH BETTER"

Even though the major thing that needs imnprovement in games now is texture quality and size...
    
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post #153 of 331
Valve has updated their engine so many times over, that we would already been using Source 2, all it is is their naming scheme that they use.

Those that say Valve's games do not look graphically good or even competitive anymore I'm sorry but Portal 2 looks great and it is all subjective anyways. Its not like the games graphics entails excellent game anyways.
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post #154 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post
This is what people want though, they want the unlockables and carrot on the stick, if thats what sells why would games stop doing this?
Valve makes games primary for the love of gaming, company's like Activision worry more about how much money their next game will bring in and its blatantly obvious that they care more about money than the love of gaming itself.
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post #155 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post
Valve makes games primary for the love of gaming, company's like Activision worry more about how much money their next game will bring in and its blatantly obvious that they care more about money than the love of gaming itself.
Well if people keep buying COD games then they obviously like the game. They keep making the game because people like it that's how it works and this is why they make millions every year. What are you going to say "oh well it's 12 year olds who don't know any better"?
post #156 of 331
They can name it Source Engine 10 billion 6 for all I care, it is still the same engine underneath, and it works very well.
     
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post #157 of 331
Don't fix it if it ain't broke. I don't have a problem with this.
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post #158 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post
Your expectations are incredibly naive, as another poster said why can't games have good graphics and gameplay? I expect a good game overall and im not ashamed to say more EA games have appealed to me than your precious valve.
Precious valve? Lets not get out of control here. I play what I like not who makes it. I still play CS 1.6 from time to time because its... fun. I still play WC2 for the very same reason. Its not always about the graphics to everyone. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is that when I want good graphics I expect them to be just that, which tend to be with specific game types and makers being that they tend to either A. have the time and money to do so or B. have produced such in the past lending to the thought that the next iteration should be just as shiny.

That's just my 2 cents.
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AMD A10-5800K Trinity 3.8GHz (4.2GHz Turbo) Soc... MSI FM2-A85XA-G65 FM2 AMD A85X (Hudson D4) HDMI... ASUS HD7870-DC2-2GD5-V2 Radeon HD 7870 GHz Edit... G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (4 x 2GB) 240-Pin ... 
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SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD256BW 2.5" 256GB S... Thermalright Silver Arrow SB-E Extreme Dual Fan... Windows 7 Logitech 110 
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COOLER MASTER HAF 932 Advanced Blue Edition RC-... Logitech G500 
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post #159 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by theturbofd View Post
Well if people keep buying COD games then they obviously like the game. They keep making the game because people like it that's how it works and this is why they make millions every year. What are you going to say "oh well it's 12 year olds who don't know any better"?
A lot of CoD buyers I've talked to are buying it because "All my friends are", even if they dislike it and say its getting crap.
    
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Intel Core i5 3570k @ 4.5Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 3GB @ 1150/1350 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 2000Mhz CL9 
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Pioneer DVR-220LBKS Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570k @ 4.5Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 3GB @ 1150/1350 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 2000Mhz CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 840 250GB Western Digital Black 1TB WD1002FAEX Seagate Barracuda 3TB ST3000DM001 Samsung Spinpoint EcoGreen 2TB 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Pioneer DVR-220LBKS Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Arcitc Cooling Acclero Twin Turbo II Arch Linux x86-64, amdgpu BenQ G2220HD BenQ G2020HD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine III Year of the Snake, Cherry Blue Silverstone Strider Plus 600w CoolerMaster CM690 II Black and White SteelSeries Sensei Professional 
Mouse PadAudioOther
Artisan Hien Mid Japan Black Large ASUS Xonar DX NZXT Sentry Mesh 30w Fan Controller 
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post #160 of 331
Did you ever think maybe that is an excuse? Why would anyone send 60$ on a game I dislike just because my friends have it ? I really think the cod hate is just a bunch of ppl riding the bandwagon especially when everyone just says "same engine".
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