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[egmnow] Valve Talks Up Source Engine 2 - Page 29

post #281 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAHOP240 View Post
Why, OH WHY do people still use this argument?!?! Gameplay and Graphics are completely separate from each other and I don't see why one needs to be sacrificed for the other.
Because in the real world, devs work off of a budget. A budget that is largely based on man hours. That same budget sets a cap on the man hours available for each part of the project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAHOP240 View Post
Most of the posters who are arguing for Valve to update their source engine aren't complaining that Valve games are boring. They just look boring. Hell, if Valve all of a sudden decided to use the Unreal engine to make their games, I don't think they would magically become less fun, but they sure would look a lot better. So please, stop using your childhood love for Valve to hide the fact that the Source engine is dated and severely behind other well known engines that are just as efficient
Sorry but I played Portal 2 and I didn't find it dated at all. Behind Crysis 2 and Metro 2033 for sure, but not dated. I actually found Deus Ex: Human Revolution's graphics to be dated and yet I didn't care b/c they took time with the gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAHOP240 View Post
For someone who likes to point out logic fallacies in other people's arguments, you sure like to use a few yourself. So because someone likes their games to be fun and look nice, all of a sudden they aren't "real" gamers? Nice appeal to an anonymous authority.
Swing and a miss. Nowhere did I appeal to or set myself up as some type of authority. I merely appealed to common sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAHOP240 View Post
Again, developers who make good games don't always sacrifice gameplay for graphics. BC2, Oblivion, The Witcher, Half-Life 2 are just a few games that are fun to play and, at the time of their release, looked wonderful.
Yes, sometimes they're in a golden position to. Sometimes they have the budget to ( Bethesda, Valve ). Sometimes the stars align just right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAHOP240 View Post
I understand Valve's focus is on gameplay and that the engine is placed on the back burner. But that doesn't mean that people can't call the Source engine out and identify it for what it is.
Call it what you want, doesn't mean that's what it is.
Edited by FuNkDrSpOt - 10/18/11 at 10:52pm
    
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post #282 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess94 View Post
Most people buy large monitors for work/school related reasons, not to game. My monitor is a 24" 2048x1152 but I could not play near that res until a few weeks ago when I upgraded from a 3870 to 2x 6770's. Even on this monitor, 1280x720 looks great, and the framerate is super high.
My post was in referrence to gaming, not productivity. So yes, running sub-1080p on a 1080p display is ew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
@ Screen resolution discussion: If they have a native 1080p LCD and they don't run at the native res, they probably don't really care about graphical quality.
Lol that's a good point
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post #283 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post
I will give you the witcher 2 example again; great gameplay, great graphics (better than any valve game), budget of 6 million or so (way lower than any valve game). This game offered the whole package.
CD Projekt is based in Poland. Do you know where they get their programmers from? I doubt they're paying the same wages in the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary as they would in the US.

And just for the sake of it, lets say that CD Projekt does pay them all 100% of what a US programmer would make. That's not to say that they didn't offer them other compensation on the backend to keep the front end expenditures down.

Plus, that's not to say that there isn't the occasional dev that strikes gold. It happens. More often than not though it takes tons of cash to put up a masterpiece. That Half-Life 2 that you keep using as an example had one of the biggest budgets in history in 2004. A big part of that was the engine.
Edited by FuNkDrSpOt - 10/18/11 at 10:55pm
    
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post #284 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post


@ Screen resolution discussion: If they have a native 1080p LCD and they don't run at the native res, they probably don't really care about graphical quality.
No, all i do is hook up my crt and knock the damn resolution down and lose nothing in graphical fidelity. Resolution still has nothing to do with the topic of a dx 11 card playing dx 11 games.
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post #285 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
a 460 is worlds more powerful than a 5770 when it comes to Dx11 usage. A 460, last time i heard, is the same as a 5850 or better.

Being a 5850 owner, i know what the Dx 11 cutoff is at 1080p. Even with a healthy 900/1200 OC, Metro and Crysis 2 turn to a slideshow when at max, so how would a 5770 run it the same or better than a 5850? Answer is it wouldn't



Resolution is relevant to maxing out a game. EVERYONE can max out a game at 480p but not everyone can at the standard resoution of 1080p.


Gameplay and graphics are related to a Devs budget and total man hours they have available to the project. Focus on one and another will suffer. It is a balancing act. It's like the saying about cars ( fast, reliable and cheap ) exept it's 4 options.
Graphics, gameplay, cheap, reliable, pick 3:



Considering the amount of smart people here you'd figure they'd get it on their own.



Uh, no one cares if you can max out a game at 480p since you don't even need a GPU to do that. I don't set the standard, the buyers do.

Simply put, I'm using the standard resolution of game players.

And no, the amp analogy actually isn't true. It's easier to produce wattage at 1kHz than at the entire sound range of 20-20kHz, which is why you see cheapo amps and receivers quoting the same wattage as amps and receivers 3x-4x their price. Oh and the THD.



1920x1200 - 7.8%
1080p - 26%
720p - 17.8%
1280x1024 - 11%

Seems like most use 1080 or around it.
OMG, you are completely missing the point of this thread. Gameplay has nothing to do with what the OP was talking about. The point is the outdated graphics valve and its source engine has been putting out. Let us stay on topic please. And resolution still has nothing to do with dx.
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post #286 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Hemsley View Post
No, all i do is hook up my crt and knock the damn resolution down and lose nothing in graphical fidelity. Resolution still has nothing to do with the topic of a dx 11 card playing dx 11 games.
Yeah because every one of us keep spare CRT's in our cupboards for these situations

I don't know why you're still arguing about dx versions? Lemme guess, if Notch added dx11 to Minecraft i bet half the OCN population would wet their pants, even if the graphics looked similar/the same...
/off-topic

On-Topic: You want resource-heavy, graphical masterpieces? Go start your own studio and quit complaining :/
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post #287 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post
most = majority = >50% = cannot be surpassed (because the others can only be <50%)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/majority
c : the greater quantity or share <the majority of the time>
Majority doesn't always mean more than 50%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post
i'd say only about a quarter of the gamers use 1080p. quite little. most use res wayy below it, such as the combined 17.8+11=28.8% people who is below 1080p in your little inadequate list.
my friend who has a 1280x1024 use a 1024x768 res to play.
just because their monitor maxes out at such and such doesn't mean they game at such and such.
36% game at 1080p or higher and that's not even counting the 10% of people using multi-monitor. More people game at 1080p alone than can game in Dx 11, which you think is oh so important. More people are adopting 1080p or higher than are adopting Dx 11, making it a focal point of both GPU makers and Devs.

If you're playing a resolution below what you have:

a) you're doing it for a competitive advantage
b) you're doing it b/c your GPU can't play at the max resolution
c) you're doing it wrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess94 View Post
Incorrect. I'll let you figure out why.
see above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Hemsley View Post
OMG, you are completely missing the point of this thread. Gameplay has nothing to do with what the OP was talking about. The point is the outdated graphics valve and its source engine has been putting out. Let us stay on topic please. And resolution still has nothing to do with dx.
OMG it actually does but none of you kiddies are listening to what I'm saying about how the BUDGET of a game connects them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai¥ View Post
You're acting like Avalanche Studios hasn't already focused on this, already releasing their second game using the same Engine that created Just Cause 2, a game that didn't support windows XP or dx9. I wasn't talking about Battlefield 3 at all, but then James mentioned it and you tried to argue with me over what someone else said...
Congrats. That's 2 whole games not using Dx 9. Doesn't prove your point in the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post
what does this have to do with graphics, a game can have good graphics and good gameplay; one does not need to die for the other to live. In fact you made my point with the games you listed. BF2 had superb gfx when it came out, in fact it was cutting edge for the time, HL2 when it first came out had some of the most wondrous graphics people had ever seen, even CS. Lord behold these games also had good game play

Do you not see how fail the argument of gorgeous games cant have good gameplay is?
Those 2 games had a huge budget. Especially HL2, which i believe was $30-$50 mil at the time and a lot of it had to do with the cost of the Source engine. Can you piece together the cost v. benefit now?
Edited by FuNkDrSpOt - 10/18/11 at 10:50pm
    
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post #289 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Hemsley View Post
No, all i do is hook up my crt and knock the damn resolution down and lose nothing in graphical fidelity. Resolution still has nothing to do with the topic of a dx 11 card playing dx 11 games.
Man I want one of those Sony's...I do believe CRTs are superior to LCDs for gaming, but most people will run an LCD and anyone who updates their rig enough to have a DX11 GPU (That I've seen anyway) either has 1366x768 on a laptop, or 1080p.
    
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post #290 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post
SOURCE

they won't change
That article has an insanely misleading headline - all Valve have said is that they have no plans to replace Source - and why would they?

Engines are made specifically so you don't have to reinvent the wheel and do everything again. If it works well, and they can update it to keep it current, why make a new engine? Source runs well and still looks good and plays well.

I wish people would get out of the mindset that every company needs a new engine every 2 games. It's not dated - it's being updated. Do you think the average manufacturer of ANYTHING completely throws out all their old work and starts fresh every few years? Of course not. They update what they have to make it better. Sometimes starting fresh is needed where the old model just can't handle the updates - Source doesn't have that problem.

To those suggesting just using another engine - other engines don't have the physics in place that they need for games like Portal - other engines are not so well known to the Valve developers, other engines won't run on a Mac and won't run on older machines.

The Source engine is still perfect for the job at hand - Valve would be fools to scrap it unless they need to.
Edited by lattyware - 10/19/11 at 2:36am
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