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[egmnow] Valve Talks Up Source Engine 2 - Page 32

post #311 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
Valve doesn't have shareholders. They aren't a publicly traded company.

Even if it was, shareholders have no balls anyways. Most don't know what's going on and the few that do don't do anything about it. See the last 10 yrs for reference.
They HAVE to have shares even if they are not publicly traded, if you don't have shares you are not a corporation. They are just doing this to be profitable, no corporation is "nice" they are an entity that exists purely to make money, and the fact that you think they don't do the things they do just to turn a profit, really shows your naivety.
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post #312 of 331
half life episode 3
post #313 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by decimator View Post
Private companies still have shareholders. The shareholders just happen to be the people running the company (or some private equity firm or another corporation).
Yep. You guys are right. My bad. Not publicly traded, private shareholders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
They HAVE to have shares even if they are not publicly traded, if you don't have shares you are not a corporation. They are just doing this to be profitable, no corporation is "nice" they are an entity that exists purely to make money, and the fact that you think they don't do the things they do just to turn a profit, really shows your naivety.
You are right but they are not bound by law to maximize profit.

Nowhere did I say they weren't doing things this particular way due to costs. In fact i DID say that but everyone and their momma wants to argue against me.

But this is where we separate. They obviously don't do everything JUST to turn a profit. If they did, we'd see them adopting the Activision business model. We'd already have 4 L4D's 3 TF's and 3 Half-Life's. We'd see them charging for every tiny update. We wouldn't see HALF of what makes valve, valve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAHOP240 View Post
Incorrect. You said "me and the real gamers". Who are 'real gamers' and why does caring about graphics not put one in this fictional authority of real gamers?
Sorry but maybe you should review what an appeal to authority is. Simply put, i was expressing my opinion based on many members' actions. While i hold a different opinion of myself and others who put gameplay first over those who

a) seem to care more about benchmarks than the game
b) seem to care more about the Dx version than the game
c) seem to care more about maxing their 3xGPU setup than how well the game plays.

NOwhere did i actually assert myself as an authority on such issue. My comments come from personal experience of the last 2 or 3 years where we have 2 camps of players: those who whine about the above, months before the game even comes out, and those who judge a game based on its gameplay first.
Edited by FuNkDrSpOt - 10/19/11 at 1:23pm
    
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post #314 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai¥ View Post
My point was that it was meaningful, since development usually takes time. Only one game had been released with DX9 being excluded on the PC, where we're now getting two new titles and a second developer actually showing their interest.
Agree to disagree. It's not worth my time to argue this anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai¥ View Post
It was more of the use of you calling others kiddy, because usually young people or 'young adults' go and use words like that to other people.
Sorry if you feel offended but I really only find that the kiddies are the only ones who can't grasp that economics has a huge influence over what a dev does. I find that younger OCN members just can't grasp common business situations where teams run into roadblocks, resources are reallocated and certain 'polishing' efforts fall by the wayside in order to come in at budget or at the deadline. Almost anyone who has ever worked a real job should understand this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai¥ View Post
You still don't seem to get it, you said the 5770 is not a DX11 card, what it launched as being.
But i didn't say that. I said that it's not really strong enough to run Dx 11 in full. It being Dx 11 is a technicality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai¥ View Post
But I do agree that resolutions are growing, and are far more important. My original argument was that you had this difficult time understanding that a 5770 is capable of DX11 and even maxing out games, albeit not at 1080p.
I understood it the first time, i just didn't care. I don't have to agree with you to understand what you're saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai¥ View Post
My, "Anti-dx9 movement" isn't saying that DX9 will last for a long time still, and the Source Engine is still a highly capable engine especially with how easy it is to mod (In both designing a mod or modding the engine.) I was trying to say DX9 is still useful for many users, but we're moving into the time when DX10/11 (With DX12 possibly occurring) is already becoming more dominant and DX9 may become excluded by more developers within the next few years. Once this happens then we can get 'true' DX11 games that are visually pleasing alongside the great performance they (Microsoft/AMD/Maybe Nvidia?) once advertised.
Any dev that tries to squeeze their customers into having to upgrade right now in a world wide depression is an idiot. Once again, you and many OCN members desire to let technology improve is going to hit a economic hard wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai¥ View Post
I also want Valve to upgrade their engine with more features than it usually does, with small enhancements every new Valve game. The Source engine is very limited in certain aspects, and Portal 2 really showed this with its clever design faults. Tons of times you have to work around the engine to get it to work, other times you have to go along until Valve releases a fix that ends up breaking another tool or even the SDK itself for a few days (Yay, itemtest hat creating thing for TF2! Oh, nearly a week before you can actually run the SDK and not just the itemtest.)
It does upgrade with small enhancements every new game. I'm sure that, at the time, Valve saw that the cost of upgrading source to Dx 11, the number of people who would see it and the number of people that could actually run the game in Dx 11 was not worth it. Again, Valve has never been about cutting edge graphics, they've always been about cutting edge gameplay ( loop it back to the issue about economics for those of you who are about to say 'dur hur this is a discussion about graphics, not gameplay'. As far as dev budgets are concerned, the two are inseparable. )
    
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post #315 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt
If a dx 11 game runs fine on a 5770, it's not really using dx 11. Period.
I must have misunderstood this then, seeing as it sounded like you said the 5770 is incapable of playing anything under DX11.
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post #316 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai¥ View Post
I must have misunderstood this then, seeing as it sounded like you said the 5770 is incapable of playing anything under DX11.
We both know i said this, assuming the resolution we were talking about was something around 1080p. I really don't feel like continuing the circular conversation.
    
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post #317 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by lattyware View Post
That article has an insanely misleading headline - all Valve have said is that they have no plans to replace Source - and why would they?

Engines are made specifically so you don't have to reinvent the wheel and do everything again. If it works well, and they can update it to keep it current, why make a new engine? Source runs well and still looks good and plays well.

I wish people would get out of the mindset that every company needs a new engine every 2 games. It's not dated - it's being updated. Do you think the average manufacturer of ANYTHING completely throws out all their old work and starts fresh every few years? Of course not. They update what they have to make it better. Sometimes starting fresh is needed where the old model just can't handle the updates - Source doesn't have that problem.

To those suggesting just using another engine - other engines don't have the physics in place that they need for games like Portal - other engines are not so well known to the Valve developers, other engines won't run on a Mac and won't run on older machines.

The Source engine is still perfect for the job at hand - Valve would be fools to scrap it unless they need to.
The funny thing is, if Valve just added DX10 support to Source and named it Source 2, most people wouldn't notice and praise its "amazing visual quality advantages over its predecessor" even if there is none.

Heh, the power of names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai¥ View Post
Actually it did, I said the exclusion of dx9 is growing, as there are now three games within a year and a half that are DX10/11 (Vista/7) only. I'm not saying it's going to boom to hundreds of games and developers by next year, but it is growing.

If your kiddy childish attitude can't put up with others being right, then stop talking out of your ass. Why are we even arguing over a monitors Res and being able to play on it when maxing out at 1280x1024, 1400x900, 1680x1050, or even maxing out at 1920x1080 is still considered maxing out on a monitor that maxes at that native resolution? I was making the point that a 5770 is a DX11 card, and can play games in DX11. You then went to say it isn't because your overclocked 5850 couldn't handle games in DX11 at the Resolution you play under. DX11 isn't dependent on 1080p resolutions or higher like you tried to make it out as.
The amount of people who run on a low screen res that I've seen are either all laptop users, or have a machine that was cutting edge before Windows 98 came out, nearly everyone I've seen goes for 1080p or 1366x768, depending on whether they're a laptop user or a desktop user mainly because both resolutions work well for HD content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Hemsley View Post
Thats what I have been trying to tell him. Instead he tries to derail the thread talking about irrelevant stuff like budget and resolution. The OP talked about the graphics of the source engine being outdated and I agree with him until source proves otherwise.

And by the way, if small companies like CDproject can develop a new engine even after one title, I don't see why a fully loaded valve cant do similar.
Actually, I'm pretty sure their "new engine" was the old engine with major updates...Kinda like Source, when you compare it from HL2 to Portal 2.

Once again...The power of a name.
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post #318 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
The funny thing is, if Valve just added DX10 support to Source and named it Source 2, most people wouldn't notice and praise its "amazing visual quality advantages over its predecessor" even if there is none.

Heh, the power of names.
well if it's really that easy, they why haven't valve done it?
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post #319 of 331
Apparently games full of clutter and cheap details on characters now equals graphics.

Source has the balance perfect, the quality looks good, and there isn't a load of paper trees, leaves and grass everywhere.
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post #320 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Thats incorrect, by law all corporations have to pursue maximum profit at all times, or they can actually have charges brought on them by their shareholders. The main reason they are not changing the engine too much is because they can make way more money not investing in one. I don't even know if they will actually make anymore HL games, it seems much more profitable just to license their engine and sell product on steam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post
Dude still thats still 6 million, compare the resources of valve to this company, valve earned 1 billion off steam last year, yet they don't want to make big budget games anymore? This is what I mean that valve is more content in steam revenue than continue making actual games. Thats why I can understand but not like that bf3 was not on steam, why should the valve team take their cut and rob DICE hard work or the enormous budget EA puts into games unlike valve.

This is why you will probably never see HL3 because valve knows there are big expectations for this game and it will require a sizable budget, also the half life series has little to no appeal to the console audience who are at best unfamiliar with it. Why make a big budget game that will only cater to mostly pc fans, when theycan just create these rinky dink games like l4d2 which could have been dlc to l4d1 and get their share of steam revenue from other games.

Valve are definitely smart business planners, but if this was any other company they would be called console sellouts or consolized
The implication Valve are not interested in making games is rubbish - they don't put out hundreds of new games every year, why? Because they make good games. Really good games - that takes time and skill - even with loads of money and people making a great game requires time and innovation, good ideas and well written story. These things can be rushed, but the outcome will never be as good. Valve know that waiting to make the best game possible is better than putting something out quickly - look at Portal 2, they completely scrapped their planned game, made something new when testers were disappointed. They had lots of ideas and carefully picked the best one.

Game development is a creative process, the best games will take time. Valve are still making games, and the money they make with steam and everything else they do will help them do that, but the last thing I'd want to see is Valve becoming another big name publisher pushing out boring games. They are already doing what they can - Valve have a lot of different franchises they are working on - having lots of money allows them to explore new ideas, and so more will come to fruition in a closer timespan as they complete.

As to steam robbing other publishers? Please. Steam takes a cut just like any brick and mortar store - they invested in making the platform and hosting it. They also provide steamworks, they provide advertising and visibility in the market, of course they should take a cut. As to robbing DICE/EA? Really? Yes, they invest in their games, and? Why should they sell it on Valve's platform without giving a cut to Valve?

As to the whole 'L4D2 could have been L4D1 DLC' - well, maybe, but that's true of many sequels. Valve didn't ask an excessive RRP, it was a good game with plenty of new content, and it was fun. Valve already do far more free or reasonably priced DLC than most companies, and haven't stooped to stopping mod tools to sell DLC.

tl;dr: Valve still make great games.
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