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[In] Why AMD Failed, Another Ex-Employee Confession - Page 17

post #161 of 177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
Hey man, not meaning to attack you just pointing out that you called me a liar. You said I was making stuff up. I'm pretty astute and to me "making stuff up" = "you are a liar". That's pretty cut and dry.

Also to point out your mistake on the profit index. 1 Intel i7-990x= 3 i5-2500k CPU in sales. I hope I got the designation right wouldn't want someone to come back at me suggesting I'm making that up. As much as people suggest that it's all Sandy Bridge, it's not. You can show me desktop numbers all you want but there is no proof to my knowledge that it's all Sandy Bridge CPUs'.

And you are correct they did spend $1Billion to fix the problem. It didn't make any sense not to. This is what I'm saying about AMD. They still can fix this. Not sure how and it's not my worry. It just means they're no more fail than Sandy Bridge was at this stage.

On the Liar front however, if I took it wrong I apologize. I'm usually not very hypersensitive. At least I didn't cuss you out. So there is that.

Oh yeah if there is one thing I do understand it's Sales figures. I worked in Sales for 15 years. I know what profit is and understand how total profit is figured.

@PoopaScoopa...

Not sure how or what you mean?

~Ceadder
I am speechless at your ignorance and delusions.
post #162 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kauke View Post
I am speechless at your ignorance and delusions.
QFT, it was over no need to start it up again unless you have something new to add other than a smarta$$ comment. Peanut gallery comments aren't appreciated no matter how much smarter you think you are than anyone else.

Especially from a guy with a whopping conversational total of 181 posts.

Have a nice day.

~Ceadder
 
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post #163 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
Egads peeps.

1. I'm not saying that 990x makes up the bulk of Intel's sales. I used one CPU as example. Just like you can't legitimately state that SB is the bulk of Intel's sales based on this same knowledge.

2. Using the product ordering to further this stance. Obviously 990x was a focus of my argument but it's not the whole enchilada.

I don't know maybe I'm not being clear enough. I don't know how to make it any clearer except that without the hard figures from the Vendors as to what they sell the most of there is no clear cut way to suggest that SB or Enthusiast CPUs' from Intel outsell the other. And yes I do realize and understand that SB is an Enthusiast CPU as well. Just using ECPU as a way to separate the two.

I doubt vendors buy to store anything and they do keep their turnover going. I understand a product supply chart and how it works. I hacve x so much of product A and I'm understocked by y amount and I sold z amount this week so I order * amount extra based on average sale per day.

Yay, bully for you. You understand it too. But you're not willing to listen to my point so lets just call it a draw. You're no more right than I am, I am no more right than you are and we'll leave it at that.

~Ceadder
Intel themselves stated that Sandy Bridge has been their best selling chip. Intel's PC Client Group has earned $27B since SB launch and sold 75M SB CPUs. Sandy Bridge has been the bulk of Intel consumer shipments since the end of last year. How are you even attempting to argue these facts?

Stop making uninformed comments since YOU don't have any information supporting any of your positions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
QFT, it was over no need to start it up again unless you have something new to add other than a smarta$$ comment. Peanut gallery comments aren't appreciated no matter how much smarter you think you are than anyone else.

Especially from a guy with a whopping conversational total of 181 posts.

Have a nice day.

~Ceadder
There is absolutely no need to insult someone based on post count. In fact, it is a very poor and flawed argument to relate post count with knowledge. In fact, he has a better post count/rep ratio which is actually a better indicator of knowledge contribution.

Please learn how to discuss/debate. Explain position, providing support data, and defend position. Stop jumping around throwing out random unrelated points and not bothering to explain anything in depth..... then insult others when you they do not see your undeveloped and/or weak arguements.
Edited by DuckieHo - 10/19/11 at 4:01am
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post #164 of 177
It is sad to hear that the majority of the Nexgen team has left AMD. The Athlon64 was a great CPU back when it was released.

It would be quite interesting to see what the original Athlon64 team could have come up with if they were the ones engineering the new AMD Fx processors.

I feel that when AMD bought ATI they damaged the CPU side of their business. They overpaid by a decent amount, and this took a large amount of cash that could have been used for R&D on their next CPU architecture.

They claim that Fusion is the future, but the number of people actually buying an AMD Fusion platform are quite low. AMD just doesn't have the brand recognition to pull it off something like this in the retail market.
Edited by AtomicFrost - 10/19/11 at 4:35am
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post #165 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post
Let's also not bring sales figures of GPUs into this thread. Marketing plays a big role in that. Today's drivers have drastically changed performance compared to reviews published back in December which makes it even harder for the general public to know which is the better and cheaper choice for video cards.

Who is this ex-engineer and how did you find out who he is? I think that's fairly important for the subject of this thread.
The quotes in the article are taken from a macrumors thread posted in April 2010 from a guy claiming to be a former AMD engineer turned IP lawyer.

Here's a link to the original thread (29 pages)

From the posters profile on macrumors.
Quote:
About cmaier

Biography
Attorney, Microprocessor Designer (AMD, Sun, Exponential Technology), iPhone developer
Location
California
Occupation
Currently primarily an intellectual property attorney
Song Recs
0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
Eh, I see it as bound to happen eventually, especially if we hit that wall on how small our chips can go before we have another semiconductor to use, I think that software developers would use more assembly and hardware engineers use more hand design to wring every tiny bit of performance out of a current design.

The original P4 (Willamette) was a pile of junk unless its new stuff was used, Northwood fixed its problems and came out and competed well...It was Prescott that proved the P4 architecture was crap.

There technically is a way to go back, if they used the CMT design on an Athlon64 style core (Which, despite what Chew* was saying, could be optimized further with a better IMC, better instruction decoding and a slightly different pipeline for example) rather than the entirely new architecture that BD is, but then most of the issues seem to come from the cache and front-end, both of which could be fixed in Piledriver quite realistically.

I personally think AMD bit too much off at once, they went for the Athlon64 like thing with two major new milestones for them (IMC and 64bit for the Athlon64, CMT and the new architecture for BD) but this time it was a bit too much, CMT on a slightly more optimized and 32nm Stars Core, then a new architecture would have worked out better IMO.

But then again if Piledriver solves BDs problems and is a good chip, not many people will think about BD, I mean, how many people point out the problems with GF100 any more?

To be fair, the Pentium 4 was good until the Athlon64 came out, Northwood competed with what it was meant to (Athlon XP), Prescott was the failure where Intel paid off Dell, HP, etc. (And that was mostly Socket 775)

And no, AMDs marketing department realized Zambezi is a sucky chip and tried to market the hell out of it, it's not a design with inherent problems in the entire idea of it (Eg. Netburst, not that anyone knew until Prescott ramped up the clock speeds past 3Ghz) that we know of, so far it seems like just a bad execution.

For example, no-one said the entire Fermi architecture was bad because GF100 is so leaky, and GF110 proved it isn't.

Only in the enthusiast market, if that.

You buy an AMD laptop, you'll probably get an AMD GPU.

It's why Intel has the most GPUs overall due to nearly everyone using IGPs.

Theoretically it is the future, and so far it seems like the execution of it is the issue, not the actual idea itself.

I wouldn't be surprised if AMD viewed Piledriver as its main server/enthusiast CPU and just released BD as-is to get product out before 2012 and to get more engineers on Piledriver.

It does, under certain circumstances.

In other news, the 286, 386, P5, P6, Netburst and K5 (All entirely new architectures like BD) had the exact same problems at first, either their new technology wasn't utilized (386, P5, P6, Netburst), their clock speeds were too low to begin with (286, 386, P5, Netburst considering its low IPC) or/and they used too much power to really be worth it (P5, netburst)

All of them had chips that came out later that fixed the problems (286-12, 386SX-33, Pentium-75/90/100, Pentium II, Northwood) and I can see the same thing happening with Piledriver.

That said, I'm not waiting until Q1 to find out, I'm upgrading to socket 1155 as soon as I can.

Once you include IGPs (The biggest market) that number changes dramatically, considering most AMD laptops would sell with an AMD IGP, and quite a few Intel laptops have AMD GPUs in them due to their low-end being updated more often than nVidias. (For example, I have a HD545v in my Samsung R540)
The Athlon64 (K8) core is slower per clock than Bulldozer (in IPC, K10.5 > Bulldozer > K8). In addition, I don't believe (I have no definite proof) that the K10.5 core could be used. It has more ALU's and would take up much more die area. Further, the largest difference is not the integer cores, but is instead the earlier stages of the pipeline.

As to P4 (first shipped November 20, 2000) being good until A64 (original Athlon shipped June 23, 1999). This is not quite accurate. (note at this point: The design team lead on the A7 AND A8 was Dirk Meyer, the same design team lead on Bulldozer.) The performance of the original Athlons was better than P4 and they launched earlier. Later iterations (technically A8) such as Sledgehammer added 64-bit support later in 2003 (and 15% IPC iirc), but Athlon beat the P4 even before Sledgehammer (beat it in price, performance, and power consumption).

The problem was that P4 was a speed demon without good IPC (20-25% slower IPC than Athlon) and the side affects (non-linear scaling, heat, power consumption, branch complexity, etc) of high-speed chips was either not completely understood or unknown at the time. The architecture had flaws from its first inception (even if these flaws weren't understood). Here's an article from 2000 done by Anandtech describing the netburst architecture. He was fairly excited, but even then, the clockspeed problem was apparent (the problem became even more apparent when the first chips launched (another anand article) at 1.5 Ghz.

Quote:
Unfortunately, in spite of the many good points about the Pentium 4, at least on paper, there is just too much working against it.

For starters, while the Pentium 4 requires a higher clock speed to maintain a performance lead, the fact of the matter is that according to Intel's roadmap the CPU won't hit 2GHz until the third quarter. The next Pentium 4 to hit the streets will be the 1.3GHz Pentium 4 which will offer a very low performance level compared to the competition, it would make sense to pursue a Pentium III instead of a 1.3GHz P4. If you're thinking about keeping a longer lasting system, don't forget that the Socket-423 interface will begin to be phased out starting at the middle of next year so the Pentium 4 won't leave you in much better of a position than the Pentium III.

For today's buyer, the Pentium 4 simply doesn't make sense. It's slower than the competition in just about every area, it's more expensive, it's using an interface that won't be the flagship interface in 6 - 9 months and it requires a considerable investment outside of the price of the CPU itself. Remember that you have to buy a new motherboard, new memory (if you don't get it bundled with a boxed CPU), and a new power supply/case. This is the investment that must be made in order to have a CPU that can't outperform any of today's top performers with the promise that tomorrow's Pentium 4 will be better.
The takeaway, the initial launch of the P4 was terrible and there was no reason to buy because it was expensive and offered no advantages.

Just like the P4 was the future that wasn't (some of the tech used, but the project was scrapped), I believe that there's a huge possibility that CMT doesn't work as well in reality as it does on paper. Once again, only time will tell (unless you have means to design and test CMT processors in your spare time).
post #166 of 177
If I was a share holder of AMD I would demand action on the latest blunder and would want concrete evidence of steps that are being taken to make sure things turn around!!
post #167 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicFrost View Post
I feel that when AMD bought ATI they damaged the CPU side of their business. They overpaid by a decent amount, and this took a large amount of cash that could have been used for R&D on their next CPU architecture.

They claim that Fusion is the future, but the number of people actually buying an AMD Fusion platform are quite low. AMD just doesn't have the brand recognition to pull it off something like this in the retail market.
I have to disagree..... Manycore processing is the future. The entire industry believes this for a good reason. Both NVIDIA and Intel have spent billions on the technology already. Improvements in IPC and clockspeeds have not been advancing very much. All the low-lying-fruit to trick out more lightly-threaded performance are about done (turbo boost, path prediction, out-of-order operations, lower latencies, etc). Every company knows that many core of more generalized processors is the future.






Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile View Post
Just like the P4 was the future that wasn't (some of the tech used, but the project was scrapped), I believe that there's a huge possibility that CMT doesn't work as well in reality as it does on paper. Once again, only time will tell (unless you have means to design and test CMT processors in your spare time).
I would say it's too early to tell. It could be AMD's GF100.... late, leaky, and slower than expected. With some tweaks, the architecture could be proven to be good foundation for the future.
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post #168 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
No Intel did not hit a Home Run right off the bat. They did save their asses by addressing an issue. And as far as I'm aware of AMD didn't send the reviewers the board. They did sent the CPU however.

~Ceadder
im pretty sure AMD put the CHV MB in the press kit along with the FX-8150,maybe not all reviewers got the press kit, maybe some got just a CPU but AMD did put together the press kit and they did send it out to some reviewers that i do know
    
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post #169 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
No Intel did not hit a Home Run right off the bat. They did save their asses by addressing an issue. And as far as I'm aware of AMD didn't send the reviewers the board. They did sent the CPU however.

And as far as BIOS being a non factor to fix issues? I don't know what to tell you except that my CPU was having issues on my board with the first few BIOS iterations. I'm now on 1902 and things have evened out much better ever since. Other owners were having issues with Thubbie on theirs and things have gotten better with newer BIOS iterations.

I just think it's a bit premature to proclaim fail is all.

Most people that are claiming fail are Intel fanbois who love to pile on at the slightest hint that AMD may have an issue.

I've run both Intel and AMD. I don't run out and claim fail when either of them have issues. I did however say that it wasn't a good thing for Intel to have to recall the manufacturer boards when businesses had them in their warehouses. I thought they should have had their chips in order before they shipped them to other companies but that didn't mean they failed. They would have failed if they had addressed the issue and it still existed.

Sheesh BD hasn't even been out a month yet and everyone is "fail... fail... fail... fail... fail..."

I say give em some time and see what they do about this.

~Ceadder


You're mixing two different things. We are talking about performance in this thread, and now you are mixing performance, which Intel did provide, with a completely different thing, which was a problem with the Sata 2 controller on the motherboard's Southbridge. They are two different things.

A Sandy Bridge CPU user could have continued to use a B2 motherboard without problems if he used the Sata 3 ports only, and probably wouldn't have problems with Sata 2 ports for years, like Intel publicly said. What we have with the FX CPUs is a performance / price / power usage problem.

Oh, and it appears, a reliability problem too.


As to AMD sending the Asus board to reviewers, it was part of the reviewers press kit. They even sent the CPU already installed in the socket.





What issues are you talking about that a BIOS update fixed ? Provide a link to substantiate your claims please. Are you talking about performance issues or stability issues ? Please make your points clear. You are just making arguments for the sake of making arguments without specifying.

As to Intel, I don't think anybody here will deny that they had a problem, and that they had to issue a recall, and that we all wished it didn't happen.

But you can't really compare Intel to AMD. AMD is in a very delicate position and they can't continue failing like this. They have already taken a huge risk by making a native quad core (Barcelona), when Intel, a company with much more resources, just glued two dual core CPUs together and it was faster, not to mention AMD's TLB bug. Now they make another risky move instead of improving upong Thuban and disaster happens again. They cannot afford to keep lagging behind. When Intel had to issue the recall, they were more than comfortable with the 1156 and 1366 platforms, AMD isn't.

AMD is acting like a company that has huge resources to build a completely new architecture instead of taking smaller but more sustained steps in improving what they have.
Edited by tpi2007 - 10/19/11 at 5:23pm
 
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post #170 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
I have to disagree..... Manycore processing is the future. The entire industry believes this for a good reason. Both NVIDIA and Intel have spent billions on the technology already. Improvements in IPC and clockspeeds have not been advancing very much. All the low-lying-fruit to trick out more lightly-threaded performance are about done (turbo boost, path prediction, out-of-order operations, lower latencies, etc). Every company knows that many core of more generalized processors is the future.


I never said that having many cores and combining the CPU and GPU was a bad thing. I just think that AMD has gone about creating Fusion in the wrong way.

AMD overpaid on the ATI acquisition. This used up money that could/should have been used on developing their next CPU offering. This has cost them a lot of money in both the server and enthusiast markets.

The second issue is this: The CPU's that AMD make have never been sold by large OEM's in large numbers. They don't have really great sales in the "normal" user market. Walk into any Best Buy and the majority of the computers there are using an Intel processor. Fusion will only work as a viable product if people are actually buying it.

Now that Intel has started integrating their own GPU with their CPU in Sandy Bridge, Fusion is in even more trouble. Yes I know that the GPUs used in Fusion are far superior when it comes to gaming, but the built in GPU in Sandy Bridge handles normal tasks just fine.
Edited by AtomicFrost - 10/19/11 at 3:37pm
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H110i GT Windows 8.1 Pro Asus 4k Corsair AX1500i  
CaseAudio
Corsair 900D Stock 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
(1) 2500K ASRock Extreme3 Gen3 GTX 780 Classified Mushkin 996995 DDR3 1600 (2 Sticks) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung 840 Pro (1) 150GB Western Digital Raptor (1) 1TB Western Digital Black Caviar (1) Samsung SATA DVD Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Antec Kuhler H2O 620 Windows 8.1 LG 21:9 Ultrawide 34" 3440x1440 Filco 114 key (Blue Cherry) / HHKB Pro 2 
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Corsair HX850W - 850W Mountain Mods - U2 UFO Orginal - Gloss Black Logitech G400 / Razer Deathadder BE Razer Goliathus Extended / Artisan Hien VE (Sof... 
AudioOtherOther
Creative Sounds Blaster X-FI Titanium HD Asus USB N-53 Wireless USB adapter  12 Case Fans 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5960x Asus Rampage V Extreme  XFX 295x2 Core Hydro Edition CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 16GB DDR4 2800 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung 850 Pro  Samsung 850 EVO Western Digital Black 3TB  LG Bluray Burner 16x 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
H110i GT Windows 8.1 Pro Asus 4k Corsair AX1500i  
CaseAudio
Corsair 900D Stock 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
(1) 2500K ASRock Extreme3 Gen3 GTX 780 Classified Mushkin 996995 DDR3 1600 (2 Sticks) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung 840 Pro (1) 150GB Western Digital Raptor (1) 1TB Western Digital Black Caviar (1) Samsung SATA DVD Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Antec Kuhler H2O 620 Windows 8.1 LG 21:9 Ultrawide 34" 3440x1440 Filco 114 key (Blue Cherry) / HHKB Pro 2 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair HX850W - 850W Mountain Mods - U2 UFO Orginal - Gloss Black Logitech G400 / Razer Deathadder BE Razer Goliathus Extended / Artisan Hien VE (Sof... 
AudioOtherOther
Creative Sounds Blaster X-FI Titanium HD Asus USB N-53 Wireless USB adapter  12 Case Fans 
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Reply
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [In] Why AMD Failed, Another Ex-Employee Confession