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SOLVED: Suffering judder / frameloss when playing 23,976 on HTPC. - Page 2

post #11 of 19
Thread Starter 
One more thing;
I've changed the refreshrate for 23,976 movies from 60 to 24Hz, and now the judder is much better, only to have problems with audio / lipsync.

When playing @ 60Hz, lipsync is perfect, but suffering judder....
post #12 of 19
You should try the Shark Codec pack.
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post #13 of 19
Try Zoom Player, I had the sam problems and someone from another forum told me to try it and voila, no more problems....sad to say goodbye to VLC though....
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post #14 of 19
Thread Starter 
ok, i think ive found the problem: My Samsung UE46D7000, and to be more precise, its playback enhancers, motion plus...

When i put my hdmi input in PC / game mode, all problems are solved. yet, it seems that with motion plus (which is turned off because of game mode) the playback is much more smoother (apart from the random judder ive been suffering). Thats why at the beginning of this thread, i got confused how much better the playback looked when playing through the smarthub, since then, game mode is off and motion plus is applied).

Ive also tested by hooking up a iiyama 24 inch full hd tft screen through hdmi, thus not using my tv, and i get the same results as with game mode on the tv (and thus without motion plus).

My questions now:

1. Can i expect just as much smoothness with other tvs, as with motion plus from samsung? Or is that an enhancer that only comes with samsung tvs (and gives problems when watching through a pc / htpc device)?

2. Is my TV 24P compatible and if not, could that be the reason for the stuttering when applying motion plus?
post #15 of 19
Thread Starter 
Well, i've figured it out...

I went to the BCC (a AV store in Holland) this afternoon with my HTPC, and i've hooked it up to all TV's in the store: Sony, Philips, LG, Panasonic, Samsung, plasma, LCD, LED, the works.

The problem with the judder is everywhere. And now i'm also clear on what my problem is called:

Telecine judder.

The problem is this:
In Holland (and most part of Europe), due to our 50Hz electricity network, you can only have 100hz/200hz TV's. These get upscaled to the 400/800Hz CMR types.

It is impossible to have a 120/240/480/960 Hz TV in Holland. And why is this important?

Because a 120/240/480/960 TV will be perfectly dividable by 24, thus making a perfect seamless output, also known as 5:5 Pulldown.

In Holland, we have 3:2 pulldown with 24P movies, since e.g 100hz divided by 24 is not a perfect round number.


So basicly, EVERYBODY in Holland has the same telecine judder, no matter what people say, as long as they have a LED / LCD TV and try to play 24P / NTSC movies.

What makes the judder more obvious tho, is the 400/800 Hz Clear Motion, or Full Motion technique; the telecine judder gets worse with this.
Because of the artificial doubling of the 100/200 Hz, the effect gets twice or 3 times worse.


So now, i have a dillema.... Either just accept the judder, or buy a plasma screen that has 600Hz, which is perfectly dividable by 24 and doesn't have the issue....

I must admit from all the TV's i've tested, there was 1 TV that had the littelest problems with the Telecine Judder: The Sony Bravia KDL HX820.

For some reason, it was able to play back very smooth, with an occasional small judder sometimes, but not as frequent as with all the other types. Even the Sony Bravya KDL HX920, which has 800 Hz opposed to the 400Hz the HX820 uses, had more judder problems then his little brother.


Community, what say thee?
Is Plasma the way to go in Holland for perfect smooth playback? And if so, what type?
post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
For more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_standards_conversion#Telecine_judder

Quote from the site:

"Telecine judder

The “3:2 pulldown” conversion process for 24 frame/s film to television (telecine) creates a slight error in the video signal compared to the original film frames.

This is one reason why NTSC films viewed on typical home equipment may not appear as smooth as when viewed in a cinema. The phenomenon is particularly apparent during slow, steady camera movements which appear slightly jerky when telecined.

This process is commonly referred to as telecine judder.

PAL material in which 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown has been applied, suffers from a similar lack of smoothness, though this effect is not usually called “telecine judder”.

In effect every 12th film frame is displayed for the duration of 3 PAL fields (60 milliseconds) – whereas the other 11 frames are all displayed for the duration of 2 PAL fields (40 milliseconds). This causes a slight “hiccup” in the video about twice a second."

So basicly, every1 in this country has the judder.
You can see for yourself, google for the UE46D7000. Notice how it has 400/800Hz. Now, google for the UN46D7000. It's the same TV, but the US model. Notice how this one has 480/960Hz AND Full 24P Cinema support. It's because its Hz rate is perfectly dividable by 24.

But, i did find out what makes it nearly unnoticable:

Samsung TV's (the new generation) have a setting, Game Mode, which completely turns off all image enhancers plus the frame interpolation, or Motion Plus technique, so u will get flawless picture. This is the true, original playback. Motion Plus adds additional frames in between the 24P, so it looks smoother than it actually is. It's also called the Soap Opera affect, loved by some, hated by others.

The way to go, is to NOT turn on Game Mode, but to set the Motion Plus to 'Clear'.
Next to this, turn ON the LED Motion Plus.

Now, you will have the sharp, coloured and enhanced picture quality, due most enhancers are turned on, but you don't have the extra judder that occurs when using frame interpolation on a 24P movie played on a PAL 60 Hz system, like the ones we use here in Holland.

Now, the picture looks like it's being boosted with Motion Plus, just a slight fraction less, but it looks definitly better then the Game Mode, in which everything is turned off.

Atleast now you don't have the stuttering that happens when Motion Plus is set to Standard and thus used fully.

So basicly, any1 who has a 100/200HZ TV that claims they don't have the stutter problem, is running in a mode that does not apply full frame interpolation, like the Samsung Motion Plus is. Like i said earlier in the thread, if you have never seen full Motion Plus before applied to a movie, you'd never see the difference with a 'normal' 24 playback.

I decided to stick with the UE46D7000, and use the above settings. It gives the best of both worlds. Was tempted to take a Sony Bravia KDL HX820, but this one has problems of its own.

Thanks all for the support, and hopefully other people will find this threat usefull.

Just remember, that when you live in a country that uses 100/200HZ TV's or have 50/60HZ broadcast on cable, you will NEVER be able to enjoy Full 24P Cinema.

For more info and proof on the subject, check this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p

"24p material can be converted to the PAL format with the same methods used to convert film to PAL. The most popular method is to speed up the material by 25/24 (4%). Each 24p frame will take the place of two 50i fields. This method incurs no motion artifacts other than the slightly increased speed, which is typically not noticeable. As for audio, the ~4% increase in speed raises the pitch by 0.7 of a semitone, which again typically is not noticed. Sometimes the audio is pitch shifted to restore the original pitch.

If 24p footage cannot be sped up, (for example if it were coming through a live NTSC or HD feed) it instead can be converted in a pattern where most frames were held on screen for two fields, but every half second a frame would be held for three fields. Thus the viewer would see motion stutter twice per second. This was the common result when programs were shot on film or had film portions, edited on NTSC, and then shown in PAL countries (mostly music videos). NTSC to PAL conversion also tends to blur each film frame into the next, and so is seen as a sub-optimal way to view film footage."

Kind regards,
Kami.
post #17 of 19
I spent months getting 23.97 fed correctly into my 46" vizio.

My best result in terms of audio, picture, and lip sync/timing was with mpc-hc and reclock while running coreavc for most decoding and ffdshow for the odd balls and raw sub overlay.

Reclock using wasapi out to my receiver or dac and the auto resolution/refreah rate adjustment of mpc to match the content.

The only issue ull have here is that if your using a receiver for surround sound youll need to output 7ch (or w/e) pcm via a newer hdmi gpu since toslink wont pass that many decoded channels. By decoding on the pc you let reclock perfectly adjust your 24p content with the audio and the refresh rate to minimize dropped framea and sync issues.

Once you sort out pulldown and judder and get 24p content @ 23.97hz there is no going back. Regular 60hz content just looks terrible.

I found my favorite viewing settings to be feeding the 23.97 hz signal to my hdtv and then turn the interpolation on the 120hz setting for the closest thing to real 5:5 pulldown without having a true 120hz panel. Plus the vizeo is ips and has full array led with local dimming. Looks pretty nice for the price.

Really makes you wonder what hollywood and everyone involved in tv broadcasting were thinking when they established ntsc standards for video and 24p for film.
Edited by rmp459 - 10/28/11 at 2:37pm
    
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post #18 of 19
Thread Starter 
Yes, i now completely understand what you are saying. 2 weeks ago, i was totally flabbergasted that my brand new TV was playing back with some judder / crappy motion. Now that i've dived into the subject, i'm even more flabbergasted that this problem even exists. Basicly, we aren't able to play eachothers movies with the most perfect settings because of this Hz infrequency. And finally i do now understand why there are still people that claim to have perfect playback: They just don't know how pretty it can be with real perfect playback. Glad to see more and more support on the subject.

I even considered to make a specialized power travo to use 110 Volts instead of the 220 Volt we use here in Holland, so i can get myself a 240 Hz TV wink.gif But even then like you say, you will have the same problem the other way around.
post #19 of 19
Hi Kami,

Thx for posting this. Very interesting.
I'm fighting with the same problem...

What about 46C7000?
It has CMR 600, it divides with 24.
Perfect match for both worlds?

Br,
Wekeat
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