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[ExtremeTech] Analyzing Bulldozer: Why AMD’s chip is so disappointing - Page 11

post #101 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
Does that also mean BD can't do what we need it to do? No, and in fact it can do it just fine.
post #102 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
AMD isn't very good at designing things from the get go, but its definitely very good at fixing ****. I remember when phenom I came out, it would barely hit 2.9, and everyone was like "this sucks just give me a die shrunk 6400+ x4"

But they stuck with it, and fixed the hell out of them and phenom II is actually a pretty damn good chip.

What i think would fix bulldozer:
-extra 128bit fmac per module, eliminating the idling fmac problem when 128bit instructions come in sandwiched between 256bit ones.
-double the L1 data cache
-half the L3 and possibly shrink L2
-widen module scheduler to be able to put out 3+ ops/cycle to each integer core, like SB and deneb have been doing for years. (correct me if im wrong on this)
-add an integer pipe per integer core so thats possible
-design their own god damned interconnects, or re-write the program that does it for them.

Its a rough interpretation, and im no microprocessor engineer, but i think if they made changes along those lines they'd have an incredibly nice chip. Its single thread performance still wouldnt be much to talk about, but *proper* implementation of dx11 is doing a pretty good job of scaling games up for more cores, the bulldozer benchmarks in the bf3 beta i saw weren't too bad?

AMD has the right idea here, they just need to perfect it. If single thread performance wasnt so dismal, this chip would stomp all over the competition.


Maybe bulldozer was just clearing the path for the piledriver to come in and drive a stake into the heart of intel, yeah? Excavator will get rid of the corpse?

Lolololol.
I went and looked back at phenom 9850 vs phenom II 920.
the advantages ranged from a little as 3% up to as high as 30% increase in performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiHound View Post
I'm the author of the piece in question. 2600K scores are lower because I turned Turbo Mode off. Turbo Mode increases the clock speed of the chip by 400MHz, or by 11%. The point was not to penalize any processor, but to gain a clearer picture of Bulldozer's IPC.

Bulldozer scales more poorly than Thuban because its an SMT design. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Remember, the original idea was that AMD would capture most of the advantage of a traditional dual-core chip in a much smaller die. If the caches on BD weren't so huge, we'd see this reflected in the chip's die size.

A 2M/4C BD configuration is ~80% as fast as a 4M/4C configuration. A 20% penalty for combining as much core logic as BD did is actually pretty good. The real problem is the IPC loss.

Here's why Bulldozer "doesn't make sense" in two easy points.

1) AMD built a chip designed to save die space -- a very smart move -- then loaded it down with huge amounts of sluggish cache.

2) It has a small, write-through L1 backed by very high-latency L2.

Why does it look the way it does? Clearly something went wrong. Everything we know suggests AMD truly expected to get something very different than what came out of the fab. Since we don't know *what* exactly happened, it's extremely difficult to predict how easy the problem is to fix.
it's L1 data cache is 1/4 of the size per-core. compared to last generation of do you all just skip over this fact ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiHound View Post
Guy,

Please produce the workloads that show Zambezi as a more attractive choice than either Thuban (at $189) or the the 2600 / 2600K. As a reviewer, I'd very much like to see them, particularly since lightly-threaded workloads are Zambezi's weakest point. Please keep in mind, the X6 1100T is just $189 compared to a list price of $245 for Zambezi (the few chips on the market are priced more around $280).
thuban didn't start at $189 that price is down from start price was $285

it drop to a really good value over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arni90 View Post
This has been bugging me quite a bit, why did they add such an enormous amount of L2 cache on the die?

Most Intel-processors have been moving towards a larger L3, while keeping L2 small and fast. AMD did the same with K10
I think K10's L2 is better then bulldozer, it's exclusive but is sharing aware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony-tail View Post
As for what went wrong -
I believe from various things I have read about it .
The Pipeline is too long .
The Cache latency is excessive .
The L3 Cache is too large causing excess current draw .
Too much of the structure of the modules is shared .
The L1 cache is too small
There are quite a few other things as well but a can not remember them .
Any one of these things are minor but when combined are a major problem and most likely difficult to rectify - and expensive !
in test with 4modules and 4 threads L1 would show being to small.
L3 cache is probably only 15-25 watts even at that large size then 6mbs on thuban is only 15 watts
I am more inclinded to say the internal scheduler of the chip needs work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony-tail View Post
In Aus
$199 for a 1100T
$369 for a 2600k
and AMD mobos are usually cheaper too .
wow och.
    
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post #103 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
You act like it didn't have any time to mature in-house. They were working on it for 5+ years, they knew how bad it was before it was released. They also had time to get any needed software support. Software can't fix hardware problems, and other than some scheduling issues with the chip, software isn't going to do much.
maturing it in-house doesnt mean zit, in case of post 1990 cpus. its not about gigahertz anymore.

what would the situation of a multi core cpu be, when it came out in the era that software did not support multithreading ?

and actually, wasnt it as such in the early stages of multicore cpu technology ?

'software cant fix hardware problems' -> really. dont apply in an i.t. position with a mindset like that. everything depends on software in current time and age. we have way too much optimization and instructions and this and that even for cpus.

again - its not about gigahertz anymore.
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post #104 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by unity100 View Post
maturing it in-house doesnt mean zit, in case of post 1990 cpus. its not about gigahertz anymore.

what would the situation of a multi core cpu be, when it came out in the era that software did not support multithreading ?

and actually, wasnt it as such in the early stages of multicore cpu technology ?

'software cant fix hardware problems' -> really. dont apply in an i.t. position with a mindset like that. everything depends on software in current time and age. we have way too much optimization and instructions and this and that even for cpus.

again - its not about gigahertz anymore.
You can give all the excuses you want for why BD sucks, but Sandy Bridge needs no such excuses. It just performs well, PERIOD.

Same thing with Nehalem. And Kentsfield. And Conroe. They've all simply performed well, without any excuses.
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post #105 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post
You can give all the excuses you want for why BD sucks, but Sandy Bridge needs no such excuses. It just performs well, PERIOD.

Same thing with Nehalem. And Kentsfield. And Conroe. They've all simply performed well, without any excuses.
 
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post #106 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by unity100 View Post
maturing it in-house doesnt mean zit, in case of post 1990 cpus. its not about gigahertz anymore.

what would the situation of a multi core cpu be, when it came out in the era that software did not support multithreading ?

and actually, wasnt it as such in the early stages of multicore cpu technology ?

'software cant fix hardware problems' -> really. dont apply in an i.t. position with a mindset like that. everything depends on software in current time and age. we have way too much optimization and instructions and this and that even for cpus.

again - its not about gigahertz anymore.
What are you talking about? Who said anything about gigahertz?

Software didn't fix the pipeline problems that the Pentium 4 had, it was a hardware issue. Software didn't fix the problems with the initial Phenoms. I'm confused why you seem to be convinced that hardware will fix the issues with Bulldozer (aside from some small gains that changes to the scheduler might give)?
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post #107 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
I'm confused why you seem to be convinced that hardware will fix the issues with Bulldozer (aside from some small gains that changes to the scheduler might give)?
leaving aside what you yourself mention, these cores are not traditional computer cores. they are neither half, nor full cores. there are things yet to be optimized on the software level, added to the o/s level you have mentioned.
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post #108 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steak House View Post
Oh, you again, trolling in these BD threads like you always do. I guess your response about sums up the intellectual content of your usual posts...

Again, what is it that YOU do on a daily basis with your computer that a BD-based system cannot do? Beat a superpi time? Top the charts of synthetic, meaningless benchmarks?

You people act as if a BD chip couldn't load windows let alone max a current video game.

I'll say it again, BD wasn't anything impressive in terms of a new architecture release, but it's mostly a failure of AMD's pre-release marketing strategy.
    
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post #109 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
Oh, you again, trolling in these BD threads like you always do. I guess your response about sums up the intellectual content of your usual posts...

Again, what is it that YOU do on a daily basis with your computer that a BD-based system cannot do? Beat a superpi time? Top the charts of synthetic, meaningless benchmarks?

You people act as if a BD chip couldn't load windows let alone max a current video game.

I'll say it again, BD wasn't anything impressive in terms of a new architecture release, but it's mostly a failure of AMD's pre-release marketing strategy.
GTX 480s In SLI
post #110 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steak House View Post
GTX 480s In SLI
Last I checked the 990FX boards supported SLI just fine. Show me a benchmark that shows BD cannot push SLI'd 480's.
    
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