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[ExtremeTech] Analyzing Bulldozer: Why AMD’s chip is so disappointing - Page 12

post #111 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFPS View Post
Except you bought a GF100 didn't you, lol? So how much of fail was GF100 hint not much. Considering nvidia stock price doubled over night. Where you born when the P4 launched!

There will be no magic bios fix. AMD does not care. They have been working on this since 2006. Thye knew exactly what they went to market with. Again look at the stock price.
Its a server chip they are passing off as mainstream. That's why John F was shooting mouth off. What does he hock/sell? server processors enough said!
GF100 was and still is a fail, it puts out far too much heat for the performance it brings, I only got my 470 because nothing came close at the price I bought it at.

Erm, they probably didn't have any working silicon until 2010, 2011...They could still easily release a BIOS fix, but most of the problems are in hardware.

And yes, it is a server chip. So is yours, 1366 and 2011 are primarily server sockets with server chips, Intel just rebrand the low-end server chipset, enable OCing and rebrand the Xeons, and bam! Enthusiast platform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pony-tail View Post
I would say - not that easy . They delayed BD launch for quite a while and it looks like they could not fix it in that amount of time . I am not 100% sure they will be able to fix all the issues even in piledriver .
I still firmly believe they only released BD as it is so the 3rd party (eg. Linux, as BD is primarily for servers) software optimization can be at least started, they probably saw this coming and then tried to fix it, then figured "Screw it, just fix it in Piledriver."

Compare GF100 and GF110 for an example, nVidia just fixed up the leakage issues and released the fix as a new product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiHound View Post
Depends on which issues you mean. Yield problems and TDP reductions should be do-able with BD--those are more dependent on GF's overall 32nm process. Fixing the chip's IPC issues...yeah. That could take awhile. I don't expect Piledriver to be a miracle cure.
Indeed, it depends on how bottlenecked BD is by the cache and front-end, both of which would be "easy" fixes I guess.

(Easy compared to the level of optimization they'd need to fix nearly everything else)

Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
The biggest failure was marketing. The second biggest failure is a lack of intelligence and appreciation of context on the side of consumers (which gets back to marketing). No one wants to sit and comprehensively read through reviews. They like to see colorful bar charts and draw unsubstantiated uneducated conclusions from them, despite no correlation between the bar chart results and actual real-world performance.

BD is a fine processor, especially for people outside of the computer hardware enthusiast community. Lots of real-world benchmarks (synthetics are meaningless) have shown it can keep up just fine with current offerings, and even surpass it (in some instances). Not high-end offerings like 2600k, but if you're not in the computer hardware enthusiast community, you wouldn't be considering that anyway.

My gf does a lot of multitasking, running virtual machines for environment testing for work, lots of photoshop work, and to be honest, the fx-8120 (or 50) is much more appealing than getting a 2600 or 2600k.
QFT, BD is a lot faster in SSE stuff when all its cores are used

Quote:
Originally Posted by RotaryKnight View Post
you rkidding right?

Amd beat intel to chip fabrication size and to the ghz barrier.

Amd 1ghz chip traded blows against intel 1ghz chip.

When the p4 1.7ghz came out, a T-bird 1.2ghz was faster then that.
Traded blows? It beat it so hard Intel tried to release a 1.13Ghz Pentium III that was so close to the 180nm nodes limit that it was unstable when sent to reviewers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Karnage View Post
Intel has said numerous times it hasn't considered Amd a threat in a long time. Intel keeps making amazing products. What has Amd done in the past 3 years?
Bobcat, Llano?

Both of which are better than anything Intel have done, if only for providing much better well-rounded performance.

(SB i3s may have a large advantage in CPU speed, but the GPU is way too slow compared to Llano, especially when GPGPU takes off and Atom is a pile of crap compared to Bobcat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFPS View Post
Here is news flash for you every piece of software is synthetic, every one.
No, it's not.

Take the HD4890 CFX I had, for example. It barely beat a stock GTX 480 in 3Dmark Vantage, but in the real world is slower than my GTX 470.
Synthetic means it's meant to replicate a workload, and is nearly always inferior to just running the actual workload and testing that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bomfunk View Post
Made amazing and affordable products?

I'm not sure if this county's prices simply favour AMD or what, but as far as price/performance ratio goes, Intel really doesn't seem that attractive. Unless Core i3 2130 really does perform better than a 6-core Phenom (X6 1045T, they cost about the same at PCCG) (of course, Intel boards cost more too). But given that I need virtualisation which Intel CPUs that happen to fall in my budget simply don't have, I have essentially no choice but to go AMD.

Back when I was building my previous machine in the 65nm Phenom era, I was stuck in the same predicament. As it happened, the X3 that I bought was ~$20 cheaper than C2D 7200, the only Intel chip I would have considered (the only cheaper ones were Celerons and the next more expensive one would have made my parents burst in tears), and it happened to have virtualisation, so it was a no brainer for me. I know I'm just a very special minority, but AMD really does make better priced chips for my needs, and I think that damn well qualifies as "doing something".

QFT, AMD is owning Intel in the budget area, most people can't tell the difference between the CPUs and AMDs tend to cost cheaper, for an enthusiast the fact you can get 6 cores and overclock them is better than 2 cores and HT at a fixed speed and for the average user, a E-350 is more than enough. Unlike Atom, but both cost a fraction of the amount you'd pay for a 1155 system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackOmega View Post
Regardless, INTEL still holds the honor of putting out the biggest fail in electronics history. Well as far as computers are concerned.
That goes to the AMD K-5, sorry.

A fraction faster than the Pentium clock for clock, but so late (2 Years!!!) that its clock speed was less than half of the Pentiums. (At the same time the 90Mhz K5s came out, there were 200Mhz Pentiums)

Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
I agree--and I'm not saying that BD should be heralded as some big accomplishment, but the fact of the matter is, it's the first (well, maybe second if you count llano) release of a completely new architecture and it can still do everything we need or want to do at the moment.
Don't you mean Bobcat? Llano is a 32nm Athlon II with a HD4670 onboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post
You can give all the excuses you want for why BD sucks, but Sandy Bridge needs no such excuses. It just performs well, PERIOD.

Same thing with Nehalem. And Kentsfield. And Conroe. They've all simply performed well, without any excuses.
Sigh, I've been through this before.

It's not excuses, it's reasons why it fails hard. Not saying that it doesn't fail.

That said, it isn't so bad in some scenarios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
What are you talking about? Who said anything about gigahertz?

Software didn't fix the pipeline problems that the Pentium 4 had, it was a hardware issue. Software didn't fix the problems with the initial Phenoms. I'm confused why you seem to be convinced that hardware will fix the issues with Bulldozer (aside from some small gains that changes to the scheduler might give)?
Optimization to make the OS use cores 0, 2, 4, 6 first, then 1, 3, 5, 7 is one example of software optimization for BD.

But most of the problem is hardware (The cache and 4ops/cycle decoder) and needs to be fixed.
    
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post #112 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
Last I checked the 990FX boards supported SLI just fine. Show me a benchmark that shows BD cannot push SLI'd 480's.
This is old news, you want to see benchmarks for Sli & Crossfire - Google It. I fold also, I suppose that BD is a good chip for that too?
post #113 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steak House View Post
This is old news, you want to see benchmarks for Sli & Crossfire - Google It. I fold also, I suppose that BD is a good chip for that too?
I did google it, couldn't find much, care to help with links?

Folding is mostly FP workloads, right?
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post #114 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturin View Post
I did google it, couldn't find much, care to help with links?

Folding is mostly FP workloads, right?
Here's the first one that I found analyzing CF performance between a PII, FX8150, and an i7-920, the Bulldozer is on par with the PII in most cases.

http://alienbabeltech.com/main/twent...ii-and-core-i7
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post #115 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
Here's the first one that I found analyzing CF performance between a PII, FX8150, and an i7-920, the Bulldozer is on par with the PII in most cases.

http://alienbabeltech.com/main/twent...ii-and-core-i7
I've seen that a couple of times but I don't feel it's consistant.

Why was the BD the only 6900 cf test, i7 and pII were 6800 cf. Is that a typo or did I miss something when reading the article?

Can anyone running CF with BD run a few?
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post #116 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steak House View Post
This is old news, you want to see benchmarks for Sli & Crossfire - Google It. I fold also, I suppose that BD is a good chip for that too?
You're the one implying that BD can't push 480's in SLI. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

Folding? Are you kidding? Now you're making this too easy--you think BD can't fold? BD chips can pull the same ppd as 2500k's, without even an overclock. http://www.overclockers.com/wp-conte...v-at-stock.jpg
    
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post #117 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturin View Post
I've seen that a couple of times but I don't feel it's consistant.

Why was the BD the only 6900 cf test, i7 and pII were 6800 cf. Is that a typo or did I miss something when reading the article?

Can anyone running CF with BD run a few?
Its a typo, the crossfire results are with two HD6970's and the bulldozer is beaten in everything bottlenecking the hell out of the setup in some games.

Civ 5:

i7 920 = 67.1
faildozer = 38.7
phenom II = 43.4

Disgusting.
post #118 of 292
It's nothing but excuse after excuse...

Talk about disappointed. I really thought as we throw in some more video cards, let those lanes breathe a bit and send the cards to work, we'd start to see some more positive results for AMD. If some of the numbers looked like 300 FPS on the 2600k and 200 FPS on the FX-8150, we'd say "Sure, there's a big difference, but the numbers are so high it's irrelevant really."


The problem is, when we see a wall in Mafia II at 73 FPS verses 123 FPS on the 2600k, even 87 FPS under Metro 2033 verses 108 FPS - as we see a push for these 1920 x 1080 120Hz monitors, with V-Sync on, the game play is just so smooth at 120 FPS. Any gamer that uses a 120Hz monitor will tell you that there's a clear difference over 60Hz ones and that's not good for AMD.


You want any more information on how bad BD is - Google It...
post #119 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturin View Post
What if AMD researched and discarded a few different uarch during this time?

Wonder what the castaways were like.
There was the supposed K9 architecture that was ridiculously wide and never saw the light of day....
    
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post #120 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steak House View Post
It's nothing but excuse after excuse...

Talk about disappointed. I really thought as we throw in some more video cards, let those lanes breathe a bit and send the cards to work, we'd start to see some more positive results for AMD. If some of the numbers looked like 300 FPS on the 2600k and 200 FPS on the FX-8150, we'd say "Sure, there's a big difference, but the numbers are so high it's irrelevant really."


The problem is, when we see a wall in Mafia II at 73 FPS verses 123 FPS on the 2600k, even 87 FPS under Metro 2033 verses 108 FPS - as we see a push for these 1920 x 1080 120Hz monitors, with V-Sync on, the game play is just so smooth at 120 FPS. Any gamer that uses a 120Hz monitor will tell you that there's a clear difference over 60Hz ones and that's not good for AMD.


You want any more information on how bad BD is - Google It...
Going back, your statement was that BD can't handle 480's SLI'd--which they clearly can, and yield excess frames per second. Sure, there's a performance gap between a 2600k and the 8150 in metro 2033 with the tri-fire 697-'s--which I'm not surprised at--but how does this relate back to your statement that BD couldn't deliver on sli'd 480's?

And weren't you saying before that you fold, and BD isn't suitable for that either, when in fact it nets the same ppd as a 2500k?
    
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