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[ExtremeTech] Analyzing Bulldozer: Why AMD’s chip is so disappointing - Page 10

post #91 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiHound View Post
Guy,

I'm going to accept the Crysis 2 results at face value. Let's assume they're accurate and show competitive performance correctly.

Let's check the gaming results on Anandtech and Tech Report. I'm not claiming these are the only two good reviews, mind you--just touching on them as representative. Tech Report tests Battlefield: Bad Company 2 (FPS), F1 2010 (driving), Civ V, and Metro 2033. In BF:BC2 and Civ V, the 2600K is 16% and 37.5% faster. In F1 2010 and Metro 2033, the differences are in the 2-3 fps range--so we'll call those a tie.

Anandtech shows the chips tying in Civ V (I can't explain why). We'll call that a wash. In Crysis: Warhead and Dawn of War II, however, the FX-8150 takes a serious beating. It competes well in the GPU-bound Dirt 3, but lags the 2600K badly in a game like Dragon Age.

As you've noted, readers want to be able to draw simple, clear conclusions. Looking at these results, I'd say sure--there are times when BD is just as fast as other chips. In some cases, it's just as fast as other chips when the game *isn't* clearly GPU-bound.

But if you were to ask me, "What chip should I buy if I want guaranteed high performance?" I'd tell you to buy a 2600K (assuming the 8150 and 2600K were your only options, since those are the two chips we're talking about.)

Why?

Because I can't tell you which games BD is going to run well, and which it won't. I can't predict how performance will look in one game vs. another. BD *can* offer high performance--but there's no way to tell if it will or not until you've tested the game.
all these, in current situation right at this moment, without any kind of instruction optimizations et al being available, of course.

that fact should be noted and stressed. else its misleading.
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post #92 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
Sure, no problem. Here: http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-fx...ance-review/10

It shows Crysis 2 performance with the 8120, 2600k, 980x, and a few others. The 8120 nets only 2fps average less than the 2600k at 1920x1080, and this is clearly not a situation of being GPU-bound.
Really? It's 22fps slower at 1024x768, but only 2fps slower at 1920x1080. You'll also notice that 6 other processors, like the FX 4100 and Phenom X4 980 BE were all within 2 fps of the 2600k and BD. Even the 8150 and 8120 get the same framerates at high-res, if it wasn't GPU-bound then the CPU clock speed difference would've resulted in different FPS.

It's as GPU-bound as I've ever seen a test....



The 980x looks like a fluke, you shouldn't jump up 15fps when going from 1600x1200 to 1920x1080.
Edited by lordikon - 10/25/11 at 5:17pm
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post #93 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiHound View Post
Guy,

I'm going to accept the Crysis 2 results at face value. Let's assume they're accurate and show competitive performance correctly.

Let's check the gaming results on Anandtech and Tech Report. I'm not claiming these are the only two good reviews, mind you--just touching on them as representative. Tech Report tests Battlefield: Bad Company 2 (FPS), F1 2010 (driving), Civ V, and Metro 2033. In BF:BC2 and Civ V, the 2600K is 16% and 37.5% faster. In F1 2010 and Metro 2033, the differences are in the 2-3 fps range--so we'll call those a tie.

Anandtech shows the chips tying in Civ V (I can't explain why). We'll call that a wash. In Crysis: Warhead and Dawn of War II, however, the FX-8150 takes a serious beating. It competes well in the GPU-bound Dirt 3, but lags the 2600K badly in a game like Dragon Age.

As you've noted, readers want to be able to draw simple, clear conclusions. Looking at these results, I'd say sure--there are times when BD is just as fast as other chips. In some cases, it's just as fast as other chips when the game *isn't* clearly GPU-bound.

But if you were to ask me, "What chip should I buy if I want guaranteed high performance?" I'd tell you to buy a 2600K (assuming the 8150 and 2600K were your only options, since those are the two chips we're talking about.)

Why?

Because I can't tell you which games BD is going to run well, and which it won't. I can't predict how performance will look in one game vs. another. BD *can* offer high performance--but there's no way to tell if it will or not until you've tested the game.
And I would absolutely agree with you on that statement. However, the computer hardware enthusiast market is a very, very small one in the grand scheme of computer users, and in general most people don't need that kind of processing power, not even close.

I would argue that BD offerings--while still not entirely ideal from a pricing standpoint IMHO--are a very competent solution in terms of performance to price (as you go down the ladder from the 8150) for the various things people do, such as general gaming, etc. You can get a 6100 for $180 on newegg (IIRC--haven't checked just now). With basic retail (not considering time-sensitive deals/sales), an unlocked intel can't be had for less than $215. And for the money, for the things I've outlined, no one would honestly notice the difference. Note--I'm talking about people other than the hardware enthusiast community. That's why BD wasn't really a failure in capability. BD was a failure in marketing.

I'm not saying that everyone on OCN should go off and buy a BD. Not in the slightest. Only that people tend to forget the "for all practical purposes" concept. For all practical purposes, BD is no worse than a 2500, 2100, even a 2600k--yes, there are both real-world and synthetic benchmarks where it trails. Same is true for the intel offerings.

The whole "BD is phail" movement is entirely overstated. AMD screwed up with their marketing, they didn't handle it well. It still doesn't detract from the fact that BD performs, for all practical purposes, just fine and in excess of what is needed.
    
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post #94 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
Really? It's 22fps slower at 1024x768, but only 2fps slower at 1920x1080. You'll also notice that 6 other processors, like the FX 4100 and Phenom X4 980 BE were all within 2 fps of the 2600k and BD. Even the 8150 and 8120 get the same framerates at high-res, if it wasn't GPU-bound then the CPU clock speed difference would've resulted in different FPS.

It's as GPU-bound as I've ever seen a test....



The 980x looks like a fluke, you shouldn't jump up 15fps when going from 1600x1200 to 1920x1080.
Yes, I acknowledged that despite the author's claims to reduce the probability, it looks like it may have been GPU-bound--but it's GPU-bound on a gtx580--that would imply a reasonably powerful CPU--at least, not something we could say is a "failure."
    
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post #95 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
The whole "BD is phail" movement is entirely overstated. AMD screwed up with their marketing, they didn't handle it well. It still doesn't detract from the fact that BD performs, for all practical purposes, just fine and in excess of what is needed.
That's great, but the fact is that the BD is hardly performing above AMD's previous architecture and often even worse. So you're argument might as well be that AMD's previous architecture performed good enough for all practical purposes, and so BD had no reason to be released.
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post #96 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
That's great, but the fact is that the BD is hardly performing above AMD's previous architecture and often even worse. So you're argument might as well be that AMD's previous architecture performed good enough for all practical purposes, and so BD had no reason to be released.
im at a loss.

ARCHITECTURE you say.

this is just 2nd revision of a batch of CHIPS. its not 'architecture'.

a new architecture takes time for optimizations and software to support. how many times does this need to be stated before some of you can come to know this base simple fact of post 1990s central processor unit fundamental ?

bd had no reason to be released ? why, exactly ? so that intel could release a similar architecture earlier, and corner the process ?

this is a chip that is not even weeks out. leave aside architecture. if you know anything about the information technology history in regard to central processor units, you would hold your horses.
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post #97 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by unity100 View Post
im at a loss.

ARCHITECTURE you say.

this is just 2nd revision of a batch of CHIPS. its not 'architecture'.

a new architecture takes time for optimizations and software to support. how many times does this need to be stated before some of you can come to know this base simple fact of post 1990s central processor unit fundamental ?

bd had no reason to be released ? why, exactly ? so that intel could release a similar architecture earlier, and corner the process ?

this is a chip that is not even weeks out. leave aside architecture. if you know anything about the information technology history in regard to central processor units, you would hold your horses.
You act like it didn't have any time to mature in-house. They were working on it for 5+ years, they knew how bad it was before it was released. They also had time to get any needed software support. Software can't fix hardware problems, and other than some scheduling issues with the chip, software isn't going to do much.
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post #98 of 292
What if AMD researched and discarded a few different uarch during this time?

Wonder what the castaways were like.
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post #99 of 292
Lame that bulldozer was mostly designed by machines and not hands...
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post #100 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
That's great, but the fact is that the BD is hardly performing above AMD's previous architecture and often even worse. So you're argument might as well be that AMD's previous architecture performed good enough for all practical purposes, and so BD had no reason to be released.
I agree--and I'm not saying that BD should be heralded as some big accomplishment, but the fact of the matter is, it's the first (well, maybe second if you count llano) release of a completely new architecture and it can still do everything we need or want to do at the moment.

Yes, it's sadly on-par with some performances of PhII. But we have no idea what challenges AMD might have been facing with the PhII architecture--if they were at the limit of the processing capabilities and needed to move to a new architecture to maintain advancements, then that's what they had to do. But saying that BD "shouldn't have been released" is a simple but complex statement. There still needs to be progress on their end--and I hate to say it, but BD is it. Or rather, it's the first step. Same pattern has happened to intel in the past with a perceived flopped release--to be honest, I think it was worse back then. Does that make BD great? No, not at all. Does that also mean BD can't do what we need it to do? No, and in fact it can do it just fine.
    
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