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[crn]With Antitrust Decree Gone MS Again Tying Browser to Windows - Page 3

post #21 of 45
so what should we browse internet with on new PCs? back to the old day of installing from optical drive?
    
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post #22 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile;15468818 
The new UI is coded in Javascript and HTML5 (both are fast moving targets BTW). These new programs/UI's will be executed by MS browser technology only. If someone wants to run Windows 8, then he or she must run MS's browser.

So now we're discussing interpreters? That's only a small step from compilers. I don't like Microsoft's Visual C++ compiler. Do think I could get them to remove it and offer a version of Windows compiled using gcc? That argument is really just as valid as suggesting Microsoft let us replace the core engine running a significant part of their operating system with Gecko or Webkit.
    
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post #23 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robwadeson;15468874 
so what should we browse internet with on new PCs? back to the old day of installing from optical drive?

We aren't talking about rendering web pages. The article is about rendering the windows user interface (metro).

Somewhat off-topic. I don't like the general trend of creating UI's that are created in JS. I didn't like the Idea when Qt started moving that direction, and I still don't think that it's a good idea for Windows. If someone must create a UI in a scripting language, let the use Python or some other language that isn't hacked together and constantly changing/breaking. I don't want to wind up with some program that no longer functions correctly because the JS it uses is too old and I can't update it. The JS target is moving too fast (besides being a lousy language for web, let alone anything else).
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris;15468908 
So now we're discussing interpreters? That's only a small step from compilers. I don't like Microsoft's Visual C++ compiler. Do think I could get them to remove it and offer a version of Windows compiled using gcc? That argument is really just as valid as suggesting Microsoft let us replace the core engine running a significant part of their operating system with Gecko or Webkit.

Embrace, extend, extinguish.

Like any other corporate entity, MS only adheres to standards as long as MS reaps the more benefits from those standards than from proprietary implementations.

That said, Web browsers are just HTML, CSS, JS, etc interpreters. They interpret the code and display it. The argument once again becomes one of where to draw the line and once again, the law (at least in the US) draws the line at the browser. If you make the entire computer UI a web page (HTML, CSS, and JS), that still doesn't change the fact that the computer is still rendering a web page as far as the rendering engine and JS JIT are concerned.
Edited by hajile - 10/26/11 at 8:54pm
post #24 of 45
Who cares. Really?
They give an option to use something else these days, anyway.
Plus half the programs people use anymore, still use the IE parsing/options .... just without the IE window!
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post #25 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin7898;15467006 
Internet explorer is an awsome browser... For downloading other browsers, i like chrome due to it being able to sync all my saved passwords and favorites across multiple computers.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=56.655340,-111.229228

Chrome is not the only browser that can do that.
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post #26 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsa700;15466929 
You can't totally remove IE from ANY version of Windows since windows 95.

The core components were always still there to render the help viewer, windows explorer, etc.

you can totally remove it by disabling it 1st, reboor in safe mode and delete it in C:\Program Files(x86) and in the normal Program Files
also Windows Explorer uses explorer.exe (located in C:\Windows\System32)
post #27 of 45
Do I have the choice of running IE on a Chrome Book?
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post #28 of 45
I've only had to uninstall and reinstall IE when a virus hit some poor sap's computer. But other than that, i usually hold onto it for work/compatibility purposes. Nothing else, for everything else, theres google chrome.
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post #29 of 45
Orrrrrrrr maybe it just preserves the settings of the application like most all other applications you uninstall?
Petty article...
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post #30 of 45
Good. Times have changed, it's not the 1990s anymore. MS's practices back then were bad, no doubt; but the entire concept of "bundling a browser" is an anachronism in 2011. No one cares anymore. If you want Firefox, it takes all of 30 seconds to go and get it...that wasn't the case way back when, it actually was a competitive advantage to have the browser pre-installed.

Not to mention, I have never once understood what "competition" was being disadvantaged here. I still don't understand why anyone cares which browser has more market share. No one makes money off of a browser. So who gives a flying rat's patoot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris;15467084 
This only seems to be an issue when Microsoft is involved. Can you remove the stock Android browser from most phones(without root)? Can you remove mobile safari from an iPhone or ipad? Can you remove safari from OSX?

This, yes. I was thinking exactly the same thing. Add PS3, Wii, and I'm sure any number of other devices to that list. Bundling a browser is standard practice across devices these days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile;15467106 
The issue at stake with that is errors because all metro programs must use MS's proprietary renderer. This puts the world back in the old IE6 position where developers are forced to develop around the tons of standards that MS doesn't implement, doesn't implement correctly, or proprietary extension. This puts MS in the dangerous position to pressure standards committees to tweak standards to suit the de-facto MS standard or just pressures developers.

Don't mix concepts though. While it may be true that anything coded for Metro must conform to Windows 8's/IE's rendering conventions, that is NO DIFFERENT than requiring any Windows 7 or older software from conforming to the Windows APIs, or Mac software conforming to the OSX APIs, etc.

That has NO BEARING on whether HTML on a remote web page will render correctly in a standalone browser. If you run Firefox on Win8, you will be using Firefox's renderer for web pages and the IE renderer for OS stuff. What's the problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris;15468455 
So if I wanted to develop a new file manager for Windows I could complain to the government about how Microsoft's file manager is tightly integrated into the OS and get it removed from Windows?

Again, dead on. Even more relevant might be Windows Media Player, since there are plenty of alternatives that actually generate revenue for companies (via music/movie rentals and sales). There actually could be an anticompetitive bundling argument to be made there! (If iTunes and Amazon stores weren't more dominant than WMP, that is!) Same could be said of offering Windows Movie Maker for free when there are for-fee competition out there. (Maybe that's why WMM is a download now instead of a bundle like it used to be, now that I think about it...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile;15468818 
The new UI is coded in Javascript and HTML5 (both are fast moving targets BTW). These new programs/UI's will be executed by MS browser technology only. If someone wants to run Windows 8, then he or she must run MS's browser.

Again, NO. The OS will use Microsoft's rendering DLLs, sure. But there is nothing stopping you from using your own browser of choice for your personal web interactions.

It sounds like you are arguing that all IE DLLs must be removable from a Windows PC for purely philosophical reasons...as if the very presence of those bits on the disk offends you. That is not a problem Microsoft needs to solve. Get over it or switch to another platform...vote with your dollars, right?
Quote:
My answer to this would be that "that's the court's decision." If it were mine, things would be much, much different. That said, the court clearly ruled a few years ago that they believed very firmly that the line was drawn at the browser.

Can't argue with that fact. But to inject an opinion, the court (and the non-tech world) was woefully ignorant of these technology topics in the 1990s. I strongly disagreed with how they drew that line, despite strongly agreeing that MS was being anticompetitive. And I also believe that, if the case were reraised today, the case would end differently because a) people in general know more about this stuff now, and b) as Nathris, noted, bundling a browser is now commonplace. It cannot be anticompetitive if everyone is doing it. I suspect Microsoft's lawyers (who are certainly far more knowledgable about this than all of us put together) believe something similar, and that is why they are proceeding the way they are.
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