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[Xbit] Apple May Dump High-End Mac Pro Desktops - Page 17

post #161 of 221
I was referring to all the idiots:

"ZOMG I MUST BASH THIS PRODUCT BECAUSE IT USES A LAST GEN SOCKET ZOMG LOLOLOLOLOLOLO"
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post #162 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by reflex99 View Post
the stupidity of OCN sometimes....

The Mac Pro runs the most current processor intel has availible....SB-E isn't out for another few weeks, and SB doesn't support more than 4 cores.....

thus Nehalem (1366) is the only option they have
Westmere-EX?
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post #163 of 221
Alright there seems to be a lot of derailing going on here. I'm going to just chime back in for a sec though.

First off, we can assume the following: Mac Pro either doesn't sell enough anymore or doesn't have high enough profit margins anymore. Based on the markup they're charging, I have an incredibly hard time believing it's the latter, so let's look at the former reason.

They aren't selling enough. Why is that? The VAST majority of Mac Pro sales are in creative agencies doing design work, that's basically a given. Generally speaking, a Mac Pro spends its life doing Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and some are used for Final Cut and web work as well.

As recently as the G4, Mac was a very different machine than the PC. Different CPU design among lots of other things. It was hard for companies to put a tangible number on the difference between a G4 and a PC workstation, so they simply continued buying into Mac because that's what the creative world started out with for the most part.

Enter the G5 and the switch to Intel CPUs. Macs today are literally identical to PCs in every single possible way other than the OS that they run. People are no longer trying to compare a PowerPC chip to an Intel chip, it's straight up apples to apples (pun not totally intended). I now have the ability to open a pricing sheet between Apple and another company and truly see where my money goes and what I get for it. Frankly, if people had no inclination to stick with Apple "just because", this Mac Pro dwindling effect would have happened LONG ago.

Couple this with the fact that for the applications a Mac Pro is used, it is a WILDLY mis-matched machine for the job it is asked to do. The Adobe suite is simply NOT multithreaded. It will use some of your cores, don't get me wrong, but it is a terribly written piece of software from a coding standpoint; have a look for yourself to see what I mean.

So in a world where people making the buying decisions are 1) not motivated by brand as long as the machine will do the job and 2) FAR more tech educated than the general populace, most creative agencies rely on savvy IT companies to make their buying recommendations...and if an IT company saves you a lot of dough, they look great; hence their motivation to actually save you money to keep your account. Why would I spend $5,000 on a machine with 12 cores in order to run software that will MAYBE use 10% of the CPU power and ONLY when processing intensive filters, the rest of the time sitting idle basically?

I could easily be using a simple quad core with a much better clock speed and obliterate the performance of a 12 core, 2.6GHz Mac Pro.

Every edge that Apple USED to have in the market is now completely non-existant. Fonts work the same on any platform. Adobe suite runs on all platforms...in fact better on PC since the hardware is more optimized. When buying a PC you aren't locked into either a 2.4GHz CPU or spending thousands for cores you'll never use. You can choose what you want.

If I were recommending hardware to a creative startup, it would be $1,600 i7 2600k desktops with 16GB RAM and a decent video card. You need your goddam head examined if you're spending a few thousand on a machine with WAY too many cores for the workload you have.

Apple basically had no clue how to optimize their hardware for their customers needs. They forced people into spending thousands on multi-CPU platforms that offered LITERALLY zero benefit to them.

P.S.
The Mac G4 wasn't all that either. It just had marketable differences from PCs. I remember working at a studio back in 2002 and having to bring in my Dell Xeon workstation from home to tackle big jobs that the G4s simply couldn't on numerous occasions.
Edited by kweechy - 11/2/11 at 11:29pm
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post #164 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
Apple basically had no clue how to optimize their hardware for their customers needs. They forced people into spending thousands on multi-CPU platforms that offered LITERALLY zero benefit to them.
I think this is a big point. How many possible configurations do their competitors provide? Workstation buyers tend to be more savvy... and hopefully understand their workloads. They will buy tailored hardware now more so than ever.
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post #165 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
Alright there seems to be a lot of derailing going on here. I'm going to just chime back in for a sec though.

First off, we can assume the following: Mac Pro either doesn't sell enough anymore or doesn't have high enough profit margins anymore. Based on the markup they're charging, I have an incredibly hard time believing it's the latter, so let's look at the former reason.

They aren't selling enough. Why is that? The VAST majority of Mac Pro sales are in creative agencies doing design work, that's basically a given. Generally speaking, a Mac Pro spends its life doing Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and some are used for Final Cut and web work as well.

As recently as the G4, Mac was a very different machine than the PC. Different CPU design among lots of other things. It was hard for companies to put a tangible number on the difference between a G4 and a PC workstation, so they simply continued buying into Mac because that's what the creative world started out with for the most part.

Enter the G5 and the switch to Intel CPUs. Macs today are literally identical to PCs in every single possible way other than the OS that they run. People are no longer trying to compare a PowerPC chip to an Intel chip, it's straight up apples to apples (pun not totally intended). I now have the ability to open a pricing sheet between Apple and another company and truly see where my money goes and what I get for it. Frankly, if people had no inclination to stick with Apple "just because", this Mac Pro dwindling effect would have happened LONG ago.

Couple this with the fact that for the applications a Mac Pro is used, it is a WILDLY mis-matched machine for the job it is asked to do. The Adobe suite is simply NOT multithreaded. It will use some of your cores, don't get me wrong, but it is a terribly written piece of software from a coding standpoint; have a look for yourself to see what I mean.

So in a world where people making the buying decisions are 1) not motivated by brand as long as the machine will do the job and 2) FAR more tech educated than the general populace, most creative agencies rely on savvy IT companies to make their buying recommendations...and if an IT company saves you a lot of dough, they look great; hence their motivation to actually save you money to keep your account. Why would I spend $5,000 on a machine with 12 cores in order to run software that will MAYBE use 10% of the CPU power and ONLY when processing intensive filters, the rest of the time sitting idle basically?

I could easily be using a simple quad core with a much better clock speed and obliterate the performance of a 12 core, 2.6GHz Mac Pro.

Every edge that Apple USED to have in the market is now completely non-existant. Fonts work the same on any platform. Adobe suite runs on all platforms...in fact better on PC since the hardware is more optimized. When buying a PC you aren't locked into either a 2.4GHz CPU or spending thousands for cores you'll never use. You can choose what you want.

If I were recommending hardware to a creative startup, it would be $1,600 i7 2600k desktops with 16GB RAM and a decent video card. You need your goddam head examined if you're spending a few thousand on a machine with WAY too many cores for the workload you have.

Apple basically had no clue how to optimize their hardware for their customers needs. They forced people into spending thousands on multi-CPU platforms that offered LITERALLY zero benefit to them.
The bolded points are those I disagree with:

1) The cost for the base single processor Mac Pro is +$1000 over the competition, and it maintains that difference even when upgrading the CPU on both machines. The cost for the base dual processor Mac Pro is the ~same as the competition, and again remains about the same when upgrading the CPU on both machines. The markup would be similar to the competition, considering the specs are matched. I'm sure that markup is plenty though and yes I do agree that it would be because people aren't buying them.

2) I'd have to argue otherwise. The hardware on a PC isn't more optimised. In fact, it would be the other way around if anything.

3) That's not so. You've got the iMac if you don't need that much power. You don't know that the people who buy them aren't using all the cores in the Mac Pro, either. And work such as 3D modelling, video rendering, intensive audio stuff, etc., can really need all those cores. And photoshop can make use of all cores can't it when say running a macro on a few hundred images and applying filters and other presets, etc.? I think it can.
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post #166 of 221
Holy crap they realized that people caught on to their scam of selling yesterdays hardware at todays prices. AMAZING!
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post #167 of 221
Great. As they should. The Market is filled with overpriced, overrated computers like this ever since Apple came into the fold. Problem?
    
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post #168 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by u3b3rg33k View Post
I don't know what that is, but I want it.
Me too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riou View Post
I agree with this guy:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow
Apple stopped licensing Mac OS out to prevent these vendors from taking all the high profit high-end sales. If high-end sales are no longer interesting or profitable for Apple, maybe it's time for them to reconsider licensing Mac OS X to select high-end system vendors. Maybe IBM for blades or racks? What other potential licensee makes systems that wouldn't degrade the Mac OS experience?
Licensing (and allowing virtualization on non-Apple hardware) would definitely be a good step. (I argued when the XServe was killed that Apple should have announced an agreement with VMware and one of the top tier server vendors to support OSX Server virtualized on a limited set of other hardware.)

And, I don't think that "degrading the experience" is really an issue - IBM/HP/Dell/SuperMicro all have higher end systems that are definitely in the same league build-quality-wise as the Mac Pro.

Just because the $300 Dells at Best Buy are cheaply made plastic systems does not mean that the $3000 Dell workstations are crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackOmega View Post
Holy crap they realized that people caught on to their scam of selling yesterdays hardware at todays prices. AMAZING!
Yep
post #169 of 221
What took so long? I never understood why the Mac Pro was so expensive for what it was. Not even the brand itself could justify such an outrageous price.
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post #170 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
-snip-
What is your obsession with having to defend Apple in every Apple thread?

There hasn't been a single Apple thread on OCN where you haven't chimed in with your Pro Apple bias.
I"m not going to bother to reply to your 3 points, because it's redundant and has been covered in this thread numerous, and you still don't get it. I will point this out though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
And photoshop can make use of all cores can't it when say running a macro on a few hundred images and applying filters and other presets, etc.? I think it can.
You think it can? Yet, you were just shown that it doesn't.

Plus, let me refresh your memory about key point where Apple just doesn't "provide optimal hardware options"

Quote:
What hasn't changed in CS5: multithreading

This update is not going to please people with multi-core machines—multithreading is still very poor in CS5, and there is no use of the GPU for filters. It isn't trivial to thread filters and, considering the 64-bit Cocoa transition and wealth of new features, I didn't expect CS5 to also have pervasive multithreading. But it's bad enough to warrant mentioning. Obviously, given the very low times that some filters take to execute on the very large 16-bit file in the benchmark, it's not needed everywhere. But on things like HDR processing, complex and slow filters like lens blur definitely need it.

Adobe is aware of the need for better multithreading in Photoshop, but, considering that the dual Xeon 56xx workstations will have twelve cores and 24 threads, it can't come too soon. One plea for Adobe: if you add GPU-accelerated filters, please use OpenCL. Premiere's new Mercury engine and GPU filters are CUDA-only, so users with those shiny new Radeons with tons of stream processors are out of luck.
I don't know why the author chose to put this on Adobe, when it should've been directed at Apple's POOR hardware choices. Premiere's Mercury engine was built with CUDA, and so is their GPU acceleration.

At the very least GTX 5xx Nvidia cards should be optional, however, since this is a "workstation" Quadros should be standard in MacPro's, rather than measly 5770's.

You still have doubts?

Read this:
http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotr...miere-pro.html

Now, why is Apple still sticking with a 5770?

There really is no justifiable reason to include 5770's on EVERY MacPro, except for low cost / high profit margin for Apple. I checked out the "competition" and their only Graphics cards options are Quadros and Firepros.

I can already hear your rebuttal coming that Premiere Pro is PC only.

Premiere Pro is based on Final Cut, and also, a lot of Adobe's Software is becoming more and more GPU accelerated ( Including Photoshop ), once again, this is where CUDA shines, not Radeon cores.
Edited by 2010rig - 11/3/11 at 12:46am
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