Originally Posted by kweechy
Steel, I'm not sure how you're really arguing this one still. You can't ignore the facts highlighted by the article here no matter how you might personally feel about the value in the Apple products.
If they're pulling out of the market due to lack of interest and sales, they clearly failed on several fronts consdering they had a large, built in customer based from the PowerPC days. They not only have failed to get new customers, their old customers are withdrawing support as well. No argument in Apple's favor has a leg to stand on based on all the information presented.
1) The prices are way too steep. This is not an opinion if they are losing loyal customers.
2) The hardware is NOT optimized for the end use at all.
3) If you want to add features, you get ripped off even further unless you want to buy them 3rd part and spend hours REconfiguring all the pro-workstations you bought for your company...totally defeats the purpose of an out of the box solution.
If you want to get gouged on pro workstations, at least get gouged by Boxx on their 4.5GHz 2600k systems. You're not throwing away thousands of dollars on a 2nd CPU that won't ever get put to use and the CPU that DOES get used is nicely overclocked with full service and support with a speed approximately 200-300% faster than the quad core Mac Pro.
1) Agreed for upgrade prices
2) What do you mean by optimised? Do you for example mean like having GPUs that offer CUDA?
3) That is a fair statement, you'd have to spend hours reconfiguring them and getting them up and running which is a down side to just buying it all ready out right and you do get overpriced greatly for RAM, etc.
Originally Posted by Phil~
Wow. I took the time to read this entire thread.
6 Mac Pro's came to 124,000. Ridiculous.
Apple overpriced all products, plain and simple.
A Mac Pro is the equivalent of a Ferrari F430. A PC is a Corvette Z06. The Z06 2ill embarrass the Ferrari, in any performance measure. But it does not have the cachet, while the Ferrari has loads of it.
The Mac Pro is simply an image builder. It may scream over priced, but it has Apple NAME, and it's not entirely a pile of ****. It's basically a more expensive PC, which is Apple's goal.
What they overprice is the upgrades not necessarily the base model itself. You can actually get a pretty great deal (it's pretty much the same price as the competition) as I've said if you only upgrade the CPU and grab the RAM, HDDs, SSDs, etc., elsewhere. (The only exception is the single processor Mac Pro which'll cost you a $1,000 over the competition.)
You could spend about $25,000 for six Mac Pro's with only the processor upgraded to max and spend about $5,100 to upgrade each of them with 64GB of RAM from OWC and several maybe $2,000 more for those 20 2TB HDDs. See what I mean?
Originally Posted by 2010rig
@Steelbom - Say what? I'm not showing any Apple hate, I'm simply demonstrating the weaknesses in the MacPro's, with factual evidence, there's a difference.
Not once have I said "I think" it works this way. You on the other hand...
I guess you didn't read this, did you?http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews...a-review.ars/8
You do a bit of hating sometimes, albeit not anywhere near as much as some members. (I wasn't speaking only in this thread but overall.) I agree that the upgrades are overpriced, that they should offer more GPUs, but not that the dual processor Mac Pro itself is overpriced.
I might stop saying "I think" and "I believe" because it sounds like you (and possibly others) are taking it the wrong way.
The Mac Pro with 2x2.93GHz X5670's is $6,199. It has 6x1GB 1333MHz ECC RAM, 1 TB HDD, 5770 1GB. The Dell with 2x2.80GHz X5660's is $6,294. It has 4x1GB 1333MHz ECC RAM, 250GB HDD, and a 512MB NVidia Quadro NVS 420 (2D Graphics Card).
You end up with Mac Pro $6,199 and Dell for $6,294. Add the difference in processor costs since the X5660 in the Dell is $220 cheaper than the X5670 (2x) which bumps it up to $6700 (+$440).
It's not quite fair yet though since the Quadro is more expensive than the 5770. From my brief check NVidia showed prices around $450, so subtract $350 ($100 less than $450 since the 5770 is worth $100) and you get $6,350.
Compare yourself the prices between the Dell model w/ 2x X5650 2.66GHz an 2x X5650 2.66GHz Mac Pro, it seems at a brief glance to be even a bit pricier on the Dell side.
As soon as you start adding RAM or HDDs the Dell's more reasonable prices mean Apple's Mac Pro is going to shoot up in price. But the most important (that can't be upgraded, at least in the Mac Pro) you can get for the same price or even ever so slightly cheaper.
(You can see the Quadro options for Mac here:
At the end of the day, MacPros still come with redundant 5770's which are useless for "workstations" The only GPU options are a 2nd 5770, or a 5870. As has been shown, these are in no way, shape or form ideal GPU solutions for workstations. I showed you clear evidence of this already.
I was never arguing that these were good GPUs for workstations, no one would. (EDIT: I should add, for users who need workstation GPUs or are doing such tasks.)
The Dell's include Quadros ( Optional firepros ) plus a 250GB SSD standard.
The MacPro's ONLY SSD option is a 512GB for $1400.
There's no default 250GB SSD standard on the machine you linked, it's a 250GB HDD. The 250GB SSD is another $875.
The MacPro's will never be comparable due to their limited KEY hardware options, even if they miraculously came in at the same price for the Dual 6 Core Xeon's. The Dell would still be the better choice since you're getting a Quadro or Firepro, depending on your preference.
They are comparable although the Mac Pro does lack the choice when it comes to GPUs, you really only have one or two workstation GPUs and they're probably only "medium end" in todays market at best.
Are you oblivious as to how you contradict yourself? A 5770 is not suited for anyone buying a $5000 workstation, nor are they given options to upgrade to "one of the good ones".
I've not contradicted myself. I never said it was "suited" but not everyone buying a $5000 Mac Pro is going to be using it for tasks that require a workstation GPU. For anyone who does need that, no it most definitely isn't suitable.
To summarise: Yes Apple charges way too much for upgrades. Yes it isn't realistic for a big company to buy many Mac Pro's and take advantage of the better pricing for third party RAM and HDDs. No, the dual processor Mac Pro isn't overpriced as long as you only adjust the CPU options.
For very small companies or individual users who need a powerful system the Mac Pro is good, assuming you get any RAM and HDDs elsewhere and that it has the necessary GPUs available if you need it for whatever your doing if you need a workstation GPU. (Also assuming what your doing will be using all the cores.) (Being extra clear here.)
That's really all I'm trying to say here.Edited by steelbom - 11/3/11 at 3:36am