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[Xbit] Apple May Dump High-End Mac Pro Desktops - Page 19

post #181 of 221
I'm sure you've seen this one before. Sadly, there are strengths and weaknesses in both Windows and Mac.
Windows Strength->Customizability<-Weakness
Apple's Strength->Lack of Customizability<-Weakness
It seems like you just can't win!

Damn. I always forget that penguin.
   
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post #182 of 221
In the professional realm, customizability is NEVER a weakness.

Don't confuse smartphones for workstations.
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post #183 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
Steel, I'm not sure how you're really arguing this one still. You can't ignore the facts highlighted by the article here no matter how you might personally feel about the value in the Apple products.

If they're pulling out of the market due to lack of interest and sales, they clearly failed on several fronts consdering they had a large, built in customer based from the PowerPC days. They not only have failed to get new customers, their old customers are withdrawing support as well. No argument in Apple's favor has a leg to stand on based on all the information presented.

1) The prices are way too steep. This is not an opinion if they are losing loyal customers.
2) The hardware is NOT optimized for the end use at all.
3) If you want to add features, you get ripped off even further unless you want to buy them 3rd part and spend hours REconfiguring all the pro-workstations you bought for your company...totally defeats the purpose of an out of the box solution.

If you want to get gouged on pro workstations, at least get gouged by Boxx on their 4.5GHz 2600k systems. You're not throwing away thousands of dollars on a 2nd CPU that won't ever get put to use and the CPU that DOES get used is nicely overclocked with full service and support with a speed approximately 200-300% faster than the quad core Mac Pro.
1) Agreed for upgrade prices
2) What do you mean by optimised? Do you for example mean like having GPUs that offer CUDA?
3) That is a fair statement, you'd have to spend hours reconfiguring them and getting them up and running which is a down side to just buying it all ready out right and you do get overpriced greatly for RAM, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil~ View Post
Wow. I took the time to read this entire thread.

6 Mac Pro's came to 124,000. Ridiculous.

Apple overpriced all products, plain and simple.

A Mac Pro is the equivalent of a Ferrari F430. A PC is a Corvette Z06. The Z06 2ill embarrass the Ferrari, in any performance measure. But it does not have the cachet, while the Ferrari has loads of it.

The Mac Pro is simply an image builder. It may scream over priced, but it has Apple NAME, and it's not entirely a pile of ****. It's basically a more expensive PC, which is Apple's goal.
What they overprice is the upgrades not necessarily the base model itself. You can actually get a pretty great deal (it's pretty much the same price as the competition) as I've said if you only upgrade the CPU and grab the RAM, HDDs, SSDs, etc., elsewhere. (The only exception is the single processor Mac Pro which'll cost you a $1,000 over the competition.)

You could spend about $25,000 for six Mac Pro's with only the processor upgraded to max and spend about $5,100 to upgrade each of them with 64GB of RAM from OWC and several maybe $2,000 more for those 20 2TB HDDs. See what I mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post
@Steelbom - Say what? I'm not showing any Apple hate, I'm simply demonstrating the weaknesses in the MacPro's, with factual evidence, there's a difference.

Not once have I said "I think" it works this way. You on the other hand...

I guess you didn't read this, did you?
http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews...a-review.ars/8
You do a bit of hating sometimes, albeit not anywhere near as much as some members. (I wasn't speaking only in this thread but overall.) I agree that the upgrades are overpriced, that they should offer more GPUs, but not that the dual processor Mac Pro itself is overpriced.

I might stop saying "I think" and "I believe" because it sounds like you (and possibly others) are taking it the wrong way.
Quote:
Configure this, and please show me where a MacPro is the SAME price, for COMPARABLE all around performance.
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellsto...recision-t7500
All right:

The Mac Pro with 2x2.93GHz X5670's is $6,199. It has 6x1GB 1333MHz ECC RAM, 1 TB HDD, 5770 1GB. The Dell with 2x2.80GHz X5660's is $6,294. It has 4x1GB 1333MHz ECC RAM, 250GB HDD, and a 512MB NVidia Quadro NVS 420 (2D Graphics Card).

You end up with Mac Pro $6,199 and Dell for $6,294. Add the difference in processor costs since the X5660 in the Dell is $220 cheaper than the X5670 (2x) which bumps it up to $6700 (+$440).

It's not quite fair yet though since the Quadro is more expensive than the 5770. From my brief check NVidia showed prices around $450, so subtract $350 ($100 less than $450 since the 5770 is worth $100) and you get $6,350.

Compare yourself the prices between the Dell model w/ 2x X5650 2.66GHz an 2x X5650 2.66GHz Mac Pro, it seems at a brief glance to be even a bit pricier on the Dell side.

As soon as you start adding RAM or HDDs the Dell's more reasonable prices mean Apple's Mac Pro is going to shoot up in price. But the most important (that can't be upgraded, at least in the Mac Pro) you can get for the same price or even ever so slightly cheaper.

(You can see the Quadro options for Mac here: .)
Quote:
At the end of the day, MacPros still come with redundant 5770's which are useless for "workstations" The only GPU options are a 2nd 5770, or a 5870. As has been shown, these are in no way, shape or form ideal GPU solutions for workstations. I showed you clear evidence of this already.
I was never arguing that these were good GPUs for workstations, no one would. (EDIT: I should add, for users who need workstation GPUs or are doing such tasks.)
Quote:
The Dell's include Quadros ( Optional firepros ) plus a 250GB SSD standard.

The MacPro's ONLY SSD option is a 512GB for $1400.
There's no default 250GB SSD standard on the machine you linked, it's a 250GB HDD. The 250GB SSD is another $875.
Quote:
The MacPro's will never be comparable due to their limited KEY hardware options, even if they miraculously came in at the same price for the Dual 6 Core Xeon's. The Dell would still be the better choice since you're getting a Quadro or Firepro, depending on your preference.
They are comparable although the Mac Pro does lack the choice when it comes to GPUs, you really only have one or two workstation GPUs and they're probably only "medium end" in todays market at best.
Quote:
Are you oblivious as to how you contradict yourself? A 5770 is not suited for anyone buying a $5000 workstation, nor are they given options to upgrade to "one of the good ones".
I've not contradicted myself. I never said it was "suited" but not everyone buying a $5000 Mac Pro is going to be using it for tasks that require a workstation GPU. For anyone who does need that, no it most definitely isn't suitable.


>>>>>

To summarise: Yes Apple charges way too much for upgrades. Yes it isn't realistic for a big company to buy many Mac Pro's and take advantage of the better pricing for third party RAM and HDDs. No, the dual processor Mac Pro isn't overpriced as long as you only adjust the CPU options.

For very small companies or individual users who need a powerful system the Mac Pro is good, assuming you get any RAM and HDDs elsewhere and that it has the necessary GPUs available if you need it for whatever your doing if you need a workstation GPU. (Also assuming what your doing will be using all the cores.) (Being extra clear here.)

That's really all I'm trying to say here.
Edited by steelbom - 11/3/11 at 3:36am
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post #184 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
There's just too many varieties for Apple to have produced. They need to support EFI and BIOS emulation and they need to have drivers for these too, either written by Apple or the company. You simply can't do that for so many.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that. Apple has...what...$70 billion in cash? If they were the least bit interested in actually making the Mac Pro a viable option for as many customers as possible (i.e. offering more choices in the VGA area amongst other things) they could do so easily. If Apple weren't so anal-retentive with their closed platform, they could even allow NVIDIA and AMD to write and release official drivers for a wider range of GPUs. NVIDIA and AMD would be happy to do this! My theory as to why they don't allow that and probably never will? It would make Hackintoshing a lot easier, and if that were to happen Apple would start losing sales and money hand over foot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
You have to pick a few cards that will be ideal. The 2008 Mac Pro came with an 8800 GT but offered the Quadro FX 5600 or 5800 for Mac. Apple seems to have shifted to AMD and are now offering a (reasonably cheap) gaming GPU.
As I said, Apple isn't exactly a small startup outfit with a limited budget working out of someone's garage. kweechy made an important point several pages back: they have more money than the oil companies. They're not interested in actually offering more choices for potential customers because it might mean they'd have to spend a bit more money and go with a lower margin.

Again, two or three GPU choices in an expensive workstation is pathetic.

Contrast that with the VGA options you have when configuring a Dell Precision T7500:




Those are only some, and if you'd like to use a different card that isn't available through Dell, you can buy one from the appropriate retailer and drop it in, along with the latest driver from NVIDIA or AMD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
An equivalent Dell starts off with a cheap $75 FireGL GPU which if you are buying an expensive workstation you probably wouldn't get that card. You'd fork out another $1,000 or $1,500, for a powerful card.
Which is exactly the point I was trying to make with the 5770 in the Mac Pro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
To me it makes sense, anyone who is going to buy a five thousand plus workstation for intensive work isn't going to use a $75 GPU. They're going to upgrade to one of the good ones, like a $1,500 or maybe even more. With the Mac Pro, you've only got that one option which suits anyone who is serious. You could pickup a 285 too, if you needed to I suppose.
...what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
Indeed, Apple indeeds to increase how many GPUs are available although I'm not sure it's their fault. I'm thinking it's possibly AMD/NVidia just aren't interested in producing cards for the Mac Pro, especially since it is one model which is probably not selling so great, or maybe Apple doesn't want to spend the funds to get them to do it.
Bingo at the bolded part. Apple would sell many more Mac Pros if they actually offered more configuration options. More options = more customers. It's just that their margins would take a hit. What makes you think NVIDIA and AMD wouldn't want more customers just like any other sane company? They both need all the customers they can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
Also, that's not the reason why new GPUs are only released with the Mac Pro. The Quadro FX 4800 or 4600 I can't remember which, and the GTX 285, came out after the 2009 model Mac Pro. But that's usually only how Apple offers them. I'm not so sure about the drivers, either. IIRC AMD or NVidia wrote their own drivers, although I can't remember which. They'd just get distributed through Apple.
Nah bro, Apple writes the drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asuperpower View Post
I'm sure you've seen this one before. Sadly, there are strengths and weaknesses in both Windows and Mac.
Windows Strength->Customizability<-Weakness
Apple's Strength->Lack of Customizability<-Weakness
It seems like you just can't win!

Damn. I always forget that penguin.
Windows > Linux > Mac
post #185 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
Ah right, you can't do a render farm without rack mountable servers. It'll be interesting to see if Apple actually ends up doing a complete redesign, they need it...
I think I might sense some sarcasm, but regardless:
 
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post #186 of 221
steelbom, what industry do you work in? Do you have any role in purchasing servers or workstations?
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post #187 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
I've not changed my statement whatsoever, I'm saying the exactly the same thing I was from the beginning, that you can replace your RAM and do so with third party RAM. Additionally, I think the problem was not my changing my statements, but you reading into them just like now.

What you quoted was legal jargon I didn't really want to read through. However, after doing so, it is talking about what is covered under their warranty and I never said it was. However, there is nothing that says the warranty for your iMac is voided by using third party RAM. (Or even hard drives in the case of the MacBook.)

As I said, both are user replaceable parts. It's designed that way by Apple, and they state that doing so won't void your warranty although Apple won't repair anything you break in the process of installing them. You'll see below that stating that "third party RAM isn't covered under the warranty" (which simply means they won't replace it for you since they didn't sell you it) doesn't mean "your iMac warranty is voided".

Below are quotes from posts in threads (with links to the full threads) as well as direct links to other threads not quoted which all in every way say exactly what I have been saying. It doesn't void your warranty to install third party RAM, if you damage it in the process you will have to pay for repairs for that specifically.

You've asked for it now so I'm going all out:

MacRumors states on their RAM guide that it won't void your warranty to install third party RAM. (Scroll to the bottom.)

Here's a post from MacRumors which discusses the issue in which a user posts this:


Again here's another from mac-forums:

Here's one from Apple's own support community:


Here's some more from Apple's own community support forums:


Here's another:



Another:

More threads, all saying the same thing:

https://discussions.apple.com/message/2751913#2751913
https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0
https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1179028
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=668537
you said 3rd party. next time read. apple does not warrant 3rd party for you.

ram chcked by apple is not 3rd party. i advize you google what a 3rd party is. wiki has a link for you.
Edited by Domino - 11/3/11 at 8:38am
post #188 of 221
Glad to see that this thread has devolved into Mac-bashing, although I'd thank Kweechy for providing what substance there is in this thread.

I'd agree that other workstation manufacturers have a competitive advantage over Apple's offering, but I'm still not particularly enthusiastic about OS X losing the only tower supported by Apple.
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post #189 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountains View Post
Glad to see that this thread has devolved into Mac-bashing, although I'd thank Kweechy for providing what substance there is in this thread.

I'd agree that other workstation manufacturers have a competitive advantage over Apple's offering, but I'm still not particularly enthusiastic about OS X losing the only tower supported by Apple.
steelborn has posted wrong information. if the mods dont delete these posts then the community needs to correct
post #190 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
steelbom, what industry do you work in? Do you have any role in purchasing servers or workstations?
no.

as soon as someone with a apple avatar comes into a thread about apples absurdness you know which posts to ignore.
Edited by bumsoil - 11/3/11 at 8:47am
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the puter
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