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post #201 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
Sigh... you need to read what I'm saying.
If you install 3rd party modules that cause your PC to malfunction, do you receive repair that is covered by their warranty? No. You are void of any Apple services that address that 3rd party RAM module.

Apple covers Apple products. Installing 3rd party modules are not covered. You do not receive warranty for 3rd party modules. If your system fails because of a 3rd party module, you receive no warranty. No warranty means that apple does not support you. You are voided from the services that Apple would have covered if it was Apple's RAM.

Once again, you are voided from the warranty service under any applicant that is directly caused by the 3rd party RAM modules. No, you are not voided from your Apple warranty for your Apple product, you are voided from Apple's warranty under any 3rd party applicant.

Yes, you are voided from Apples warranty services.



Look steelbom, you can wave your paper around saying that Apple's warranty is not voided, but at the end of the day when you receive no protection services for your PC that is caused by 3rd party RAM, what's the point of the warranty? You have no legal protection from any of Apple's warranty services related to the RAM. Look up the definition of void...you'll see.
Edited by Domino - 11/3/11 at 10:03pm
post #202 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post
If it included some sort of Nvidia card ( GTX 480 TF2 ), most likely, yes. Preferably a Quadro 4000, absolutely!

I'd be willing to downgrade to the X5570 + Quadro 4000.

I'd pay $3000 easily for that.

Realistically, Apple would sell it closer to $4500, then I'd be back at square one.
Dell has a T3500 w/ a 3.2GHz W3670 for $2,234 with the cheapest possible GPU selected. It's $3,084 with a 2GB Quadro 4000. (It's +$900 for a 3.46GHz W3690.)

Apple's got the Mac Pro w/ a 3.3GHz W3680 for $3,699. It's $4399 with the 2GB Quadro 4000 for Mac. (Not sure if the Mac Quadro 4000 is the same as the PC one though.)

It'd be $3399 if Apple didn't charge that floating $1000 for the SP model. (The Dell would sit around ~$3400 too with the W3680.)

Funnily enough Apple's RAM is cheaper than Dell's in this instance. It's $530 from Apple for 12GB (3x4GB) and $670 from Dell and $1,275 for 24GB (3x8GB) but $1,530 from Dell for 6x4GB. So are the hard drive prices. It's $600 from Dell for a 2TB HDD and $150 from Apple?

EDIT: You've got to be kidding me... I've been arguing this whole time that you can get away from Apple's extreme prices by doing upgrades yourself but Dell is more expensive, even on the DP model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post
If you install 3rd party modules that cause your PC to malfunction, do you receive repair that is covered by their warranty? No. You are void of any Apple services that address that 3rd party RAM module.
Yes, that's right. You don't get covered for the RAM modules.
Quote:
Apple covers Apple products. Installing 3rd party modules are not covered. You do not receive warranty for 3rd party modules. If your system fails because of a 3rd party module, you receive no warranty. No warranty means that apple does not support you. You are voided from the services that Apple would have covered if it was Apple's RAM.

Once again, you are voided from the warranty service under any applicant that is directly caused by the 3rd party RAM modules. No, you are not voided from your Apple warranty for your Apple product, you are voided from Apple's warranty under any 3rd party applicant.

Yes, you are voided from Apples warranty services.


Look steelbom, you can wave your paper around saying that Apple's warranty is not voided, but at the end of the day when you receive no protection services for your PC that is caused by 3rd party RAM, what's the point of the warranty? You have no legal protection from any of Apple's warranty services related to the RAM. Look up the definition of void...you'll see.
I said yes Apple doesn't cover the third party RAM or any damage done by you installing it or relating to it but who has ever heard of RAM damaging a system? It possibly sounds like we're both misunderstanding each other.

For example, I have 2x4GB 1333MHz from OWC installed in my iMac as well as the two original 2GB Apple modules. My iMac is still under warranty and if I send it to be fixed they will fix it. If they find the source of the damage has been my installing the RAM or that I've chosen the wrong RAM which has resulted in hardware damage, I will have to pay to repair it. However, if the screen, or processor, or graphics card is damaged or failed, then I'm fine.

It sounded to me based on what you were saying that if I put 2x4GB third party RAM in my iMac regardless of what the problem is my Mac is no longer covered. The GPU dies? Too bad. The CPU fails? Too bad, etc. I was at no point ever saying Apple would cover your third party RAM under their warranty.
Edited by steelbom - 11/3/11 at 10:16pm
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post #203 of 221
Couple points to make based on some older posts.

Quote:
It's $3,500 for a dual quad Mac Pro and it costs $70 to get 16GB of RAM from a third party such as otherworldcomputing. Additionally, your comparing this against a pre-built yes? You're not actually suggesting you can get a PC with the equiv. processing power as the above Mac Pro from a retailer for about $1100?
Mac Pros are not typically deployed in large companies. They are used in smaller places with less infrastructure, if I were to really take a stab at it, I'd say the VAST majority of Mac Pro towers live in studios of 20 or less artists.

At that purchasing scale, it is actually totally reasonable to simply buy custom built PCs from a 3rd party supplier or IT company and have them support it. You're not deploying hundreds of machines where a 1% fail rate compounds to mean you have a daily headache in regards to systems.

Look at it this way with a hypothetical. We have a 20 artist studio doing graphic design work for print, web and that type of crap let's say. Our choices are as follows:

Mac Pro
2.8 GHz Nehalem
3GB RAM, you then throw it in the garbage and replace with 3rd party 16GB. I am absolutely conceding on the 3rd party RAM issue considering our 150 artist studio does that...every machine is required to have minimum 24GB and we're turning over to 48GB slowly. That gets prohibitive with Dell, Apple, etc., who happily charge you $1,000 to install $100 RAM.
1TB drive
Total cost = $2,800
PassMark score = 5,000

Custom PC
4.8 GHz Sandy
16GB RAM
1TB drive
Total cost = $1,400
PassMark score = 13,000


If we're buying 20 machines, I save $28,000 by NOT using Apple. I also get approximately 360% MORE computing power.

The parts in my custom PC are much higher quality (Apple, Dell, etc, use completely trash motherboards, PSUs, etc). In addition, my custom PC can be upgraded to anything no matter what year it is as long as motherboard mounting standards remain the same and we keep using the same 24pin power connectors, etc. All it needs is a new mobo + proc.

Sit down and REALLY think about how spectacularly your hardware would have to fail on you, crash on you and die on you to cost your business $28,000.

Once you start looking at software licenses, this begins to look even more stacked in PC's favor; due to the difference in computing power, you effectively get 2.6 licenses on PC for every 1 on Apple in terms of amount of CPU work that can be done.

I own 6 custom built PCs now myself for work and haven't had issues with anything at all. In fact the biggest issue I've had was looking at how much I've spent on Dell workstations for myself in the past that I could have saved.

Oh and one last thing, you mentioned Xeon being more of a "workhorse" CPU than a consumer chip. There simply is no such thing. It's all just electrons firing down pathways several billion times per second, the only thing ACTUALLY different on a Xeon is multiple QPI links; a feature that obviously isn't required for single CPU machines. The Xeon E3 lineup for example is quite literally cloned from the Sandy i7 lineup, even the prices are identical.

Some chipsets are more "professionally" oriented than others, but I don't think anyone can seriously tell you that P68 delivers any discernible difference in user experience than X58 for 99% of purposes, including in the professional realm...and again, the Mac Pro deployments aren't handling heavy workloads, they are beautiful paperweights sitting under 10% CPU load all day long.

Perhaps the REAL kicker in all of this, what is Apple's support ACTUALLY like on the Mac Pro? Will they make 24/7 service calls to your door with replacement parts and support staff? Cause if I'm spending $4,000 on an Apple and have to either take it to a Mac store for service or have an IT staff anyway, then I am truly speechless.
Edited by kweechy - 11/4/11 at 12:52am
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post #204 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
4.8 GHz Sandy
Not stock though.
    
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post #205 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
Couple points to make based on some older posts.

Mac Pros are not typically deployed in large companies. They are used in smaller places with less infrastructure, if I were to really take a stab at it, I'd say the VAST majority of Mac Pro towers live in studios of 20 or less artists.

At that purchasing scale, it is actually totally reasonable to simply buy custom built PCs from a 3rd party supplier or IT company and have them support it. You're not deploying hundreds of machines where a 1% fail rate compounds to mean you have a daily headache in regards to systems.

Look at it this way with a hypothetical. We have a 20 artist studio doing graphic design work for print, web and that type of crap let's say. Our choices are as follows:

Mac Pro
2.8 GHz Nehalem
3GB RAM, you then throw it in the garbage and replace with 3rd party 16GB. I am absolutely conceding on the 3rd party RAM issue considering our 150 artist studio does that...every machine is required to have minimum 24GB and we're turning over to 48GB slowly. That gets prohibitive with Dell, Apple, etc., who happily charge you $1,000 to install $100 RAM.
1TB drive
Total cost = $2,800
PassMark score = 5,000

Custom PC
4.8 GHz Sandy
16GB RAM
1TB drive
Total cost = $1,400
PassMark score = 13,000


If we're buying 20 machines, I save $28,000 by NOT using Apple. I also get approximately 360% MORE computing power.

The parts in my custom PC are much higher quality (Apple, Dell, etc, use completely trash motherboards, PSUs, etc). In addition, my custom PC can be upgraded to anything no matter what year it is as long as motherboard mounting standards remain the same and we keep using the same 24pin power connectors, etc. All it needs is a new mobo + proc.

Sit down and REALLY think about how spectacularly your hardware would have to fail on you, crash on you and die on you to cost your business $28,000.

Once you start looking at software licenses, this begins to look even more stacked in PC's favor; due to the difference in computing power, you effectively get 2.6 licenses on PC for every 1 on Apple in terms of amount of CPU work that can be done.

I own 6 custom built PCs now myself for work and haven't had issues with anything at all. In fact the biggest issue I've had was looking at how much I've spent on Dell workstations for myself in the past that I could have saved.

Oh and one last thing, you mentioned Xeon being more of a "workhorse" CPU than a consumer chip. There simply is no such thing. It's all just electrons firing down pathways several billion times per second, the only thing ACTUALLY different on a Xeon is multiple QPI links; a feature that obviously isn't required for single CPU machines. The Xeon E3 lineup for example is quite literally cloned from the Sandy i7 lineup, even the prices are identical.

Some chipsets are more "professionally" oriented than others, but I don't think anyone can seriously tell you that P68 delivers any discernible difference in user experience than X58 for 99% of purposes, including in the professional realm...and again, the Mac Pro deployments aren't handling heavy workloads, they are beautiful paperweights sitting under 10% CPU load all day long.

Perhaps the REAL kicker in all of this, what is Apple's support ACTUALLY like on the Mac Pro? Will they make 24/7 service calls to your door with replacement parts and support staff? Cause if I'm spending $4,000 on an Apple and have to either take it to a Mac store for service or have an IT staff anyway, then I am truly speechless.
Welp, I guess that about it covers it.

Mac Pro



2006 - 2012


Goodnight sweet prince.
post #206 of 221
What kind of enterprise support does apple offer though? I know dell arrives like within the hour if one of our servers goes down, as for desktops/laptops, I get parts from them literally the next day.
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post #207 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
What kind of enterprise support does apple offer though?
Same as everyone else:
http://www.apple.com/support/product...se/server.html

Summary:
Select$6k/yr
Get support for up to 10 incidents; four-hour response for priority 1 issues; 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Preferred
$20k/yr
Get support for an unlimited number of incidents; two-hour response for priority 1 issues; 12 hours a day, 7 days a week; technical account manager.

Alliance
$50k/yr
Get support for an unlimited number of incidents across multiple locations; one-hour response for priority 1 issues; 24 hours a day, 7 days a week; onsite review by an Apple technical support engineer.

If you are in that boat, you DGA* about the cost of the computer compared to the cost of it not working.

Does anyone really think GE Medical cares about an extra $1k initial on a workstation when they pay the person that operates it a 6 figure salary?

Heck the little company that I work for has employees that are on-site at the customer's business 100% of the time just to deal with potential problems / requests that they might have.
Edited by u3b3rg33k - 11/4/11 at 9:09am
 
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post #208 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

It sounded to me based on what you were saying that if I put 2x4GB third party RAM in my iMac regardless of what the problem is my Mac is no longer covered. The GPU dies? Too bad. The CPU fails? Too bad, etc. I was at no point ever saying Apple would cover your third party RAM under their warranty.
then dont say you arent voided from your warranty. simple reading comprehension. stop posting wrong information about apple
post #209 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by u3b3rg33k View Post
Same as everyone else:
http://www.apple.com/support/product...se/server.html

Summary:
Select$6k/yr
Get support for up to 10 incidents; four-hour response for priority 1 issues; 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Preferred
$20k/yr
Get support for an unlimited number of incidents; two-hour response for priority 1 issues; 12 hours a day, 7 days a week; technical account manager.

Alliance
$50k/yr
Get support for an unlimited number of incidents across multiple locations; one-hour response for priority 1 issues; 24 hours a day, 7 days a week; onsite review by an Apple technical support engineer.

If you are in that boat, you DGA* about the cost of the computer compared to the cost of it not working.

Does anyone really think GE Medical cares about an extra $1k initial on a workstation when they pay the person that operates it a 6 figure salary?

Heck the little company that I work for has employees that are on-site at the customer's business 100% of the time just to deal with potential problems / requests that they might have.
Far as I recall, I did not have to pay anything over and above for my Dell workstations to get their support. I simply paid the listed price on the machines and if anything went wrong, they were there in hours with parts to replace.

Quote:
Not stock though.
Nope, but with current gen chips, it's getting more and more absurd to run them at stock speeds. In the past, by not OCing your chips...you only lost about 20-30% performance realistically in a 24/7 100% load scenario versus a stable, OC'd machine. Nowadays, you lose 40-50% performance. That's an awfully big hit when you think about it.

I really hope that as more and more people realize this, you start to see sales of these overpriced machines dwindle for high performance applications.

I can't imagine building a studio on anything but SR3s, contracting out to an IT company with the money you saved by not buying from HP, Dell, Apple, etc. End up with machines 1.5-2x faster for the same money in the end.

The film studio I work at like I'd mentioned has around 150 Dell dual Xeon machines deployed. We have our own internal tech department though to fix problems, so I'm not sure I understand why they'd buy machines from a place like Dell in the first place really.

Our entire render farm is basically a home built type of thing which is why the Dell workstations surprise me. Several hundred rackmounted dual Xeon machines that the tech dept just assembles themselves with a tray, mobo, PSU, HDD, etc.

Many of the artists at our studio are making 6 figures and they still most definitely care about the costs of the computers. I don't know why the salary of the person operating the machine would suddenly make you no longer care what you spend on it. Getting gouged by 1 or 2 thousand dollars on a computer is the price of some software licenses.
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post #210 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
Couple points to make based on some older posts.



Mac Pros are not typically deployed in large companies. They are used in smaller places with less infrastructure, if I were to really take a stab at it, I'd say the VAST majority of Mac Pro towers live in studios of 20 or less artists.

At that purchasing scale, it is actually totally reasonable to simply buy custom built PCs from a 3rd party supplier or IT company and have them support it. You're not deploying hundreds of machines where a 1% fail rate compounds to mean you have a daily headache in regards to systems.

Look at it this way with a hypothetical. We have a 20 artist studio doing graphic design work for print, web and that type of crap let's say. Our choices are as follows:

Mac Pro
2.8 GHz Nehalem
3GB RAM, you then throw it in the garbage and replace with 3rd party 16GB. I am absolutely conceding on the 3rd party RAM issue considering our 150 artist studio does that...every machine is required to have minimum 24GB and we're turning over to 48GB slowly. That gets prohibitive with Dell, Apple, etc., who happily charge you $1,000 to install $100 RAM.
1TB drive
Total cost = $2,800
PassMark score = 5,000

Custom PC
4.8 GHz Sandy
16GB RAM
1TB drive
Total cost = $1,400
PassMark score = 13,000


If we're buying 20 machines, I save $28,000 by NOT using Apple. I also get approximately 360% MORE computing power.

The parts in my custom PC are much higher quality (Apple, Dell, etc, use completely trash motherboards, PSUs, etc). In addition, my custom PC can be upgraded to anything no matter what year it is as long as motherboard mounting standards remain the same and we keep using the same 24pin power connectors, etc. All it needs is a new mobo + proc.

Sit down and REALLY think about how spectacularly your hardware would have to fail on you, crash on you and die on you to cost your business $28,000.

Once you start looking at software licenses, this begins to look even more stacked in PC's favor; due to the difference in computing power, you effectively get 2.6 licenses on PC for every 1 on Apple in terms of amount of CPU work that can be done.

I own 6 custom built PCs now myself for work and haven't had issues with anything at all. In fact the biggest issue I've had was looking at how much I've spent on Dell workstations for myself in the past that I could have saved.

Oh and one last thing, you mentioned Xeon being more of a "workhorse" CPU than a consumer chip. There simply is no such thing. It's all just electrons firing down pathways several billion times per second, the only thing ACTUALLY different on a Xeon is multiple QPI links; a feature that obviously isn't required for single CPU machines. The Xeon E3 lineup for example is quite literally cloned from the Sandy i7 lineup, even the prices are identical.

Some chipsets are more "professionally" oriented than others, but I don't think anyone can seriously tell you that P68 delivers any discernible difference in user experience than X58 for 99% of purposes, including in the professional realm...and again, the Mac Pro deployments aren't handling heavy workloads, they are beautiful paperweights sitting under 10% CPU load all day long.

Perhaps the REAL kicker in all of this, what is Apple's support ACTUALLY like on the Mac Pro? Will they make 24/7 service calls to your door with replacement parts and support staff? Cause if I'm spending $4,000 on an Apple and have to either take it to a Mac store for service or have an IT staff anyway, then I am truly speechless.
It's a lot more effort to build twenty custom PCs than it is to buy twenty though. You'll always be able to build your own significantly cheaper, if you compared that to the Dell, you'd find the same spec'd machine for about $800 less. The Mac Pro would nudge ahead as a bit cheaper with the DP models. Oh, and the Xeons do support ECC RAM which is important in "mission critical environments" but not so much for anytime else.

You really wouldn't buy a SP Mac Pro due to the $1000 premium. You'd get the base dual processor model which offers pretty much twice the score/cost ratio as the base SP Mac Pro but the custom PC still offers three times the score/cost ratio than the DP Mac Pro. (If you can build them, do it for the best value.)

Mac Pro
2x 2.66GHz six-core
16GB RAM
1TB HDD
Cost: $4,999 + $150
Score: 8,000 x2

Custom PC
4.8 GHz Sandy
16GB RAM
1TB drive
Total cost = $1,400
PassMark score = 13,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post
then dont say you arent voided from your warranty. simple reading comprehension. stop posting wrong information about apple
You're not being very clear with anything you've said.

When you buy an iMac you have a warranty for that iMac. When you purchase and install two 4GB modules of third party RAM, your iMac is under Apple's warranty but that RAM is not. That means any problem unrelated to that RAM or to "user error" is covered.
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