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[Yahoo] Biggest jump ever in CO2 emissions - Page 22  

post #211 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaxel View Post
So a less modern car getting 35 mpg outputs more CO2 per mile driven than a modern engine getting 25 mpg?

I think we may be talking past each other. I am talking about the fuel efficiency of a vehicle, not efficient engines. Fuel efficiency of a vehicle takes far more into account than how efficiently an engine burns fuel. Someone said Chinese cars are worse than American cars, when the fact is they get 50% more distance traveled for the volume of fuel they burn.

In any case, it doesn't mitigate the amount of CO2 emissions by the US and China.
Fuel efficiency comes dependant on the situation.

It's not the same to burn it on an explosion engine, that burning it on a stove, or simply in a fireplace.

In a fireplace it burns completely, on a diesel stove some of it isn't burnt if the stove isn't exceptionally well optimised (petrol/air levels-wise), and in an engine... The same thing, just soooo dang fast it's very hard to predict what will happen, and clean air often gets slightly mixed with burnt fuel, oxygen-less air and sometimes even engine oil.


Chinese cars output less CO2 than American cars because their engines are ridiculous. Think about the average chinese car. It's a 1.2-1.6L, four cylinder, four stroke engine. These things by definition CANNOT eat a lot of fuel, simply because it can't fit on the combustion chambers. Ergo they output little CO2 compared to American engines.

What they do is pollute with NOx and SOx derivates (due to the vast majority of them not even using a catalizing unit).

You Americans have a tradition of using massively big engines (talkin' about the 4L Jeeps you used to drive, the 8L cadillacs, the 6L fords, and so on) because your fuel has been traditionally cheap. Those engines produce outrageous amounts of CO2, and NOx and SOx aswell. But your cars have evolved, reducing the pollutant agents emissions. CO2 is still outrageous though.


Look at, for example the Ford Bronco '96 smallest engine available:
3.9L, six cylinder engine: 150HP.

Look at a comparable Japanese engine from the same year:
Toyota Land Cruiser's 5VZ-FE; 3.4L, six cylinder: 183HP.

Half a liter less, 33HP more.


I chose this particular block because it's the only Toyota produced in that period of time that had 'comparable' characteristics.

And if we go further backwards in time... Let's pick two sportscars of comparable engine sizes:

Pontiac GTO '74:
5.7L, V8: 200HP.

Aston Martin V8 '69
5.3L, V8: 380HP.

Or if you don't want a supercar, pick a Mercedes Benz:

Mercedes 500SLC: 4.97L, 240HP, V8.




See what I mean? Americans could care less about wasting fuel, because they had plenty, and cheap. In Europe, fuel has always been MUCH more expensive, and we had to use it up better.

And that trend has to change guys. You need to start dropping those HUGE engines that eat more fuel than a freaking cargo ship and pollute more than a blowing up carbon power plant. For instance, my everyday car is a Fiat Stilo '04, with a 1.9L JTD Diesel engine, 150HP. Eats 6.8L/100km in combined usage. On highways at 135km/h, it drops to 5.6L/100km.

And it's not anywhere near the cheapest car to operate, nor uses the most efficient engine block available.


Now go thank General Motors Company (GMC) for being the main promoter of burning fuel for the very sake of it.
   
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post #212 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post
He's not a troll nor an ignorant.

If you burn in an engine (not a fireplace) 2 gallons of gas per hour at a 50% efficiency rate (energy out per gas in), you're producing less CO2 than an engine that eats 1.5 gallons at a80% efficiency. Even if you eat more fuel.

snip
You're over-thinking the issue and your scenario isn't realistic. I don't think there's a more efficient engine on earth that consumes MORE gas than the less efficient version. The efficiency of the engine dictates how much gas it uses. Using your example, an engine with a 50% efficiency rate will ALWAYS use more gas and create more CO2 than an engine that is 80% efficient.

And for all intents and purposes, modern engines burn 100% of the gas they use either in the chamber or in the catalytic converter. For this convo, the amount not burnt is negligible, as is the amount of other pollutants.

You drive 20,000 miles a year. At 28 MPG that's 714 gallons of gas. At 20 MPG that's 1000 gallons of gas. Less MPG = more CO2.

Another way to think about it is even the most efficient internal combustion engines on the road today are only around 30% energy efficient. So we get about 35MPG on a 30% efficient engine. On a 90% efficient engine we would get 105 MPG. What would create more CO2, using 571 gallons a year or using 190 gallons? BTW, each gallon of gas = 19 lbs of CO2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post
snip
You seem to be focused more on making some type of statement about American cars than you are talking about emissions or CO2. If you want to do that, fine, but don't cherry pick a 1996 Ford Bronco or a 1974 Pontiac GTO when we're obviously talking about todays cars. Why you're talking about cars from +15 yrs ago is beyond me.
Edited by FuNkDrSpOt - 11/6/11 at 4:03am
    
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post #213 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post
See what I mean? Americans could care less about wasting fuel, because they had plenty, and cheap. In Europe, fuel has always been MUCH more expensive, and we had to use it up better.

And that trend has to change guys. You need to start dropping those HUGE engines that eat more fuel than a freaking cargo ship and pollute more than a blowing up carbon power plant.
That trend is slowly changing here in the U.S., some of it by individuals' choices, and some because laws that state that fuel efficiency needs to get to a certain level in the next 10 years or so. For example read about Ford/Mazda's new SkyActiv technology, pretty interesting stuff they're doing to increase fuel efficiency, their 1.3L version that will be hitting Europe soon will get 70mpg and it's not even a hybrid, and the 2.0L version that has already hit the U.S. gets around 40mpg, basically the same gas mileage that a 3 cylinder was getting is now what their 4 cylinder is getting.
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post #214 of 225
idk why, but yahoo is now full of teaparty conservatives, with their rabid hate of science and liberalism.

sorry i digressed to venting
   
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post #215 of 225
Its funny listening to the opinions from a bunch of computer nerds who dont know squat about the Earth.
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post #216 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingNugget View Post
Its funny listening to the opinions from a bunch of computer nerds who dont know squat about the Earth.
Something about pots and kettles.
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post #217 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmanuel View Post
I find it scary that some people here support population control. This is the most anti-American, anti-freedom idea. You guys must really admire Chinese society, dumping (or recently running over) little girls because everyone wants a boy. It's dangerous when people believe in both global warning and population control because soon enough, after we're done talking about man made global warming, we'll talk about controlling population to limit the number of "breathers" or should I say "exhalers" of that deadly gas called CO2.
Agriculture is responsible for 14% of global greenhouse gases. A majority of that comes from animal farts and burps(methane) which is 23 times more potent than CO2. There's your "exhalers" of greenhouse gas.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 11/6/11 at 9:50am
post #218 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmanuel View Post
I find it scary that some people here support population control. This is the most anti-American, anti-freedom idea.
>America
>freedom

post #219 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post
Fuel efficiency comes dependant on the situation.

It's not the same to burn it on an explosion engine, that burning it on a stove, or simply in a fireplace.

In a fireplace it burns completely, on a diesel stove some of it isn't burnt if the stove isn't exceptionally well optimised (petrol/air levels-wise), and in an engine... The same thing, just soooo dang fast it's very hard to predict what will happen, and clean air often gets slightly mixed with burnt fuel, oxygen-less air and sometimes even engine oil.


Chinese cars output less CO2 than American cars because their engines are ridiculous. Think about the average chinese car. It's a 1.2-1.6L, four cylinder, four stroke engine. These things by definition CANNOT eat a lot of fuel, simply because it can't fit on the combustion chambers. Ergo they output little CO2 compared to American engines.

What they do is pollute with NOx and SOx derivates (due to the vast majority of them not even using a catalizing unit).

You Americans have a tradition of using massively big engines (talkin' about the 4L Jeeps you used to drive, the 8L cadillacs, the 6L fords, and so on) because your fuel has been traditionally cheap. Those engines produce outrageous amounts of CO2, and NOx and SOx aswell. But your cars have evolved, reducing the pollutant agents emissions. CO2 is still outrageous though.


Look at, for example the Ford Bronco '96 smallest engine available:
3.9L, six cylinder engine: 150HP.

Look at a comparable Japanese engine from the same year:
Toyota Land Cruiser's 5VZ-FE; 3.4L, six cylinder: 183HP.

Half a liter less, 33HP more.


I chose this particular block because it's the only Toyota produced in that period of time that had 'comparable' characteristics.

And if we go further backwards in time... Let's pick two sportscars of comparable engine sizes:

Pontiac GTO '74:
5.7L, V8: 200HP.

Aston Martin V8 '69
5.3L, V8: 380HP.

Or if you don't want a supercar, pick a Mercedes Benz:

Mercedes 500SLC: 4.97L, 240HP, V8.




See what I mean? Americans could care less about wasting fuel, because they had plenty, and cheap. In Europe, fuel has always been MUCH more expensive, and we had to use it up better.

And that trend has to change guys. You need to start dropping those HUGE engines that eat more fuel than a freaking cargo ship and pollute more than a blowing up carbon power plant. For instance, my everyday car is a Fiat Stilo '04, with a 1.9L JTD Diesel engine, 150HP. Eats 6.8L/100km in combined usage. On highways at 135km/h, it drops to 5.6L/100km.

And it's not anywhere near the cheapest car to operate, nor uses the most efficient engine block available.


Now go thank General Motors Company (GMC) for being the main promoter of burning fuel for the very sake of it.
Thank you for making my point. Chinese cars produce less CO2 per mile on average than US cars.
Edited by kaxel - 11/6/11 at 9:14am
post #220 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingNugget View Post
Its funny listening to the opinions from a bunch of computer nerds who dont know squat about the Earth.
Most people here play with computers as a hobby. There are members from every field of academia.
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