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post #21 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlells01 View Post
Nor am I exactly sure why you posted in this thread; if I made generalizations in error, please point them out.

<snip>
Well where do I begin son...

I wasn't sure how serious I should take this thread, with a title such as "Musings" with no actual contemplation in its OP, other than some generalized statements such as:

Quote:
All this time later, and I'm left with the subjective view that, rather sadly, nothing substantive has changed. Yes, things have undoubtedly improved, but while we're now running the excellent Windows 7 & OS X Lion, the approach of the Linux community is to have 100 different varieties (if you think I'm exaggerating -- http://distrowatch.com/) available for every conceivable subset of tech-savvy fanboy.
You fail to understand why there are so many "varieties", but chose to criticize it anyways. you also gave no indication what is wrong with linux distro's, but chose in the same sentence to "glorify and praise" MS windows 7 and Mac OS x...but make no points why they are superior or even a "subjective" view as to why they are better...then at the end of this quote, you simply "insult" every linux user ever, by calling us "fanboy" cause the variety that linux does offer.

if anything, this thread was started with the intentions of "flamebait", and you were upset that we didn't bite. now you got a few nibbles, you can move on, and if you want a serious discussion, research what you think linux is lacking, offer some ideas how to improve, and then ask us for our opinions on it.
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post #22 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post
Well where do I begin son...
Lets translate your post together, shall we?

Ad hominem
Ad hominem
Ad hominem
Ad hominem
Ad hominem
Ad hominem


The usage of fanboy is in noted jest, as in there is no reason whatsoever to have 100+ different distributions of a product, other than to stroke the e-peen of a user base that just wants to be different - gathering around, and developing one version together wouldn't fly within the Linux world...how many posts are there on this very forum alone from people that won't run x or y distribution because it's for newbs?

As to what Linux is lacking, both Parityboy and myself both explained our issues with it as a desktop, consumer OS; if you want to avoid that, then please move on - hopefully we'll get someone here who will offer something of benefit to those of us who seek substantive thoughts on the issue.
post #23 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlells01 View Post
Nor am I exactly sure why you posted in this thread; if I made generalizations in error, please point them out.



I see you prefer the ad hominem approach to discussion; regardless, if by "too ingrained", you mean "expect things to work properly, as they do with Windows and/or Mac", then yes...I'm too ingrained.



Really? Read on...



So using your line of reasoning, these issues are Parityboy's fault, and could have been solved if he "put more effort into it"?
Yes and no. Again, it really is both the end user and the creator's responsibility for how an OS works(same is true for the drivers and other software in it). In general, things work properly and often better in Linux for me. But these are things that often aren't tied to the proprietary and closed source things you mention that don't get Linux support or get the barest of minimum support. Yes, Skype works better in general for Windows because that's where the maker has invested the work. So does ms office. But you're missing the point if you're going, "why doesn't ms office work on linux"? That is the example I'm pointing out of "ingrained" thinking. You don't expect MS office windows version to "just work" on OSX do you? The responsibility there lies with the maker to get it working somewhere else. But it's your responsibility to know that and to know of alternatives if you want to stick to the "unsupported" OS. There's more than one program that can do what skype does but it's really hard to get my windows/osx only friends to use anything else. I know that and deal with it.

Convenient of you to side step my mention of how you are helping perpetuating the problems you want fixed by saying you're done with Linux for the next six years. A hardware maker should always provide better drivers for their hardware than someone without the source code and/or without having worked on the hardware. Hence why nvidia proprietary drivers are better than nouveau. Also why AMD's are not as good.

So in the end windows/osx are for the end user who don't want to know, don't care to know, and don't want the responsibility that Linux requires (and any OS should) to use. I know probably less than half of what Transhour and the others do who frequent here and started off with even less than that yet I'm fine with Linux. What does that tell you? This dumb end user (me) can use Linux like any monkey could with a little effort and knowledge.

Again an OS is a tool like anything with a computer. Use the one that works best for you and the given tasks.
     
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post #24 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post
Again an OS is a tool like anything with a computer. Use the one that works best for you and the given tasks.
Agree, Rookie.

Case in point though: Just last night, I was updating a GPS; within Windows and Mac (I tested both), it's a very easy task - just point-and-click.

Within Linux, it's absolutely impossible - can't be done, period (within terminal, an application, or anything else...except booting into one of those aforementioned OS's).

That's why Linux is a pain in the @ss for consumer usage; yes, there are alternatives to well-known software programs (document creation, video playback, etc.)that work great, but many things just don't function...period.
post #25 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post
Convenient of you to side step my mention of how you are helping perpetuating the problems you want fixed by saying you're done with Linux for the next six years.
As aforementioned, I haven't messed around with Linux in six years, and the problems that existed then...exist now. Given that, I'd reason that the individuals perpetuating issues with this OS are the Linux community as a whole, who've decided that instead of refining and delivering a single fully-polished product, they'd rather take the current approach (100+ different flavors).

As such, when it comes to things just working for the end-user, I fully expect nothing to change.
post #26 of 42
The problem is that the split up nature of Linux makes it great (a different distro DE or program for every kind of user.) also makes it more complicated and difficult to get a handle on.
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post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlells01 View Post
As aforementioned, I haven't messed around with Linux in six years, and the problems that existed then...exist now. Given that, I'd reason that the individuals perpetuating issues with this OS are the Linux community as a whole, who've decided that instead of refining and delivering a single fully-polished product, they'd rather take the current approach (100+ different flavors).

As such, when it comes to things just working for the end-user, I fully expect nothing to change.
That's rather odd considering I bet Linux/some form of nix is at the heart and core of that device. To me Linux in the right hands would probably have the best odds of dealing with such devices. That's what Gentoo users make it seem like when they talk about the stuff they've done. Hell, I had the potential to do things the manufacturer of my crappy katanaII cell phone didn't support in windows through some programs in Linux (but being the scared and Murphy's Law Incarnate person I am didn't). Again...it's all about exposure and knowledge. I don't claim to have much in the knowledge department but I've seen others do enough to know what's possible. Practicality however would be another thing especially for the general end user.
     
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post #28 of 42
Hardware support tends to be less of an issue on desktop Linux these days; most things actually work. As I've pointed out, the main issue is both application support (which is dependent on money and therefore critical mass) and the reason to improve application support (critical mass, which appears to be missing).

Another sore point though, as I've alluded to earlier, is integration. How easy is it for me to dump my Android contacts via Bluetooth into my contacts application? Not very. Loads of convolution for something that should be Dead Simple and should Just Work.


@jlells01

Quote:
Given that, I'd reason that the individuals perpetuating issues with this OS are the Linux community as a whole, who've decided that instead of refining and delivering a single fully-polished product, they'd rather take the current approach (100+ different flavors).
That's the nature of open systems development and community, and inherently there's nothing wrong with it. Don't forget, the people that work in Microsoft and Apple are given a set of rules and a target, and are paid money to hit it.

Likewise, the top desktop Linux distributions (Fedora, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu) are delivered by corporations; such organisations force targets upon their developers - a form of "beneficial dictatorship". Otherwise you can easily get into a situation where you find yourself herding cats...

Unfortunately, those Linux corporations are either focused on the server-side, which is where the big money is (RedHat) or are trying to deliver a better desktop experience only (Canonical with GNOME and then Unity, or the KDE developers). However, they are dependent on the community for all of the other applications that make up the desktop experience, and not all of those developers will have the time and energy to deliver something that people are not going to pay for.

Money talks. Simple as that.
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post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlells01 View Post
Lets translate your post together, shall we?

Ad hominem
Ad hominem
Ad hominem
Ad hominem
Ad hominem
Ad hominem


The usage of fanboy is in noted jest, as in there is no reason whatsoever to have 100+ different distributions of a product, other than to stroke the e-peen of a user base that just wants to be different - gathering around, and developing one version together wouldn't fly within the Linux world...how many posts are there on this very forum alone from people that won't run x or y distribution because it's for newbs?

As to what Linux is lacking, both Parityboy and myself both explained our issues with it as a desktop, consumer OS; if you want to avoid that, then please move on - hopefully we'll get someone here who will offer something of benefit to those of us who seek substantive thoughts on the issue.
So let me get this straight?

Am I suppose to be impressed by your incorrect use of argumentum ad hominem?

Since you offered up no argument to begin with in your first or subsequent post, I can not simply "deny" your arguments based solely on the "negative" aspects...

If anything, you started a post, you offered up some flamebait thoughts and crappy graph, that I assume was suppose to support your "imaginary" argument, that linux "sucks" cause it has low market share...cav, parity and rookie offered up some insights to what they thought was wrong with linux, which i agree with them on, but you? you offered nothing, other than the flame...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jlells01 View Post
As aforementioned, I haven't messed around with Linux in six years, and the problems that existed then...exist now. Given that, I'd reason that the individuals perpetuating issues with this OS are the Linux community as a whole, who've decided that instead of refining and delivering a single fully-polished product, they'd rather take the current approach (100+ different flavors).

As such, when it comes to things just working for the end-user, I fully expect nothing to change.
what problems? you mention them, but you don't point them out.

You also expect a community, you have taken no active participation in for six years, to meet your expectations?

The people who make and use linux, aren't gonna bow down to the whims of the windows or mac os x community, they are going to make their distro of choice to fit the needs of their users first and foremost.

you want to hear my "musings" about the linux community?

1. people like you!

you offer up no arguments or solutions, you berate linux for all of its phenomenal contributions, improvements and innovations it has done over the last 10 years, and then you piss on all work its devs and users do for it, by contributing there thoughts on how to improvement, by making post that say "linux sucks, why does it exist again?".

2. Non-experience users:

People who download it, install it in vbox or some other virtualization program, or heaven forbid use that poor excuse of installation method, wubi, spend 5 minutes in it, try to download and install a windows program, and then become "experts" of what is wrong with linux.

3. windows gamers:

people who say asinine things like "only if it could game"...


Am I mad about post like these? yes, they piss me off to no end, they are endless arguments of "this vs this".They usually get hundreds of responses, when real post, of people actually needing real help, or asking real questions, get ignored or few responses.


You want a constructive and worthwhile discussion? I'll give you one then!

1. Unifying packages.

I would like to see more unity across the package front, I personally feel having separate repositories, for the same software that comes more or less from the same sources, is damaging to the linux community as a whole, as it warns off prospected developers, who simply do not want to release their source code, but offer a binary solution. about the only method available to them in this situation, would be to make a "run" file, or a tarball, that has the binary already in it, and instructions on how to install it.

Which to me defeats the purpose of having some of these really awesome package managers like apt-get,dpkg, yum, rpm, zypper and pacman (and any others i didn't mention.). Not saying the linux community should abandoned their packages format or package managers, just saying make it where a universal package could be introduced and that their package managers could install, track and upgrade later on or remove it.

It would also help out a great deal, transferring packages from one distro to the other, if they some how agreed on a "naming" scheme of sorts for their dependency chains, as i'm no stranger for ripping apart rpm's to build deb packages out of or vice versa, the hardest part of this, is to build the dependency chains.

2. Simplifying the File System Hierarchy.

Even tho there is a standard FSH for linux, that they should follow, not all distro's follow this for one reason or another.

I recently read an article that Redhat will pushing some much needed changes to the FSH. this is only a small gripe over all about linux distro's in generally, as long as the package maintainers can take into account their distro's quirks in FSH, I don't really see this as needed, but it could play some havoc on the overall support for a universal package that i support.

3. Unification of some of the systems:

I would love to see a unified sound architecture, not this fractured mess we have now with alsa, pulse, phonon, OSS, etc (those are the ones i'm aware of.). To me that is a must for linux to ever be taken seriously as a desktop OS. their sound systems needs a overhaul, and these groups should work together for this common goal.

I would like to see more standards put in place, that DE's and WM's adhere too. OpenDesktop.org is just to "frilly" with their standards, Gnome and KDE do their best, same with xfce, as I'm no expert on the others, I can not comment on them, but i've had troubles with where and how KDE programs function and show up in gnome and vice versa.


4. This one is for KDE.

Please for the love of god, work on kwin's ability to render gtk apps more "pretty" or make it where they can use qt themes. KDE apps show up nice in gnome/xfce, but the return can not be said about gtk in KDE.

5. Xorg

it needs to die, not peacefully in its sleep, but tragically in a house fire. its based on legacy code that was designed and built for principles that were "big" in the 80's, that didn't actually withstand the test of time. their constant hacking to add "new" and "modern" features, have left xorg a mess, glitchy and full of bugs, that cause graphic driver issues. We need a new graphical system, not sure if wayland is the answer, even tho I hope it can be at least a stop gap

6. Unfair

it is unfair to lay the blame for no support for specific software and drivers on that of linux distro or developers, as this is not how it happens for windows or mac os x. if you feel so strongly about this, maybe you should take the often spouted "speak with your wallet" approach that is thrown around on this forum, and buy hardware and software that does have linux support.

conclusion:


if you'd like I could offer more of my own, quite experience view (5+ years) of linux problems, but you get the gist...

My advice to anyone reading this, ignore it for now. Use linux for whatever reason you need it to be, if it doesn't suit those needs, go back to windows, or use it in a different way.

I make all my decisions for new hardware and software purchases, on that its use in linux. if i can not use it, i'm not gonna let a printer or a voip client determine the OS I have chosen to use for the majority of my work on my computer, on the hardware I own.

Yes linux has its issues, yes sometimes they issues have no clear cut way to solve them, but for what i paid for linux, i got a pretty damn good deal imho, considering its "alternatives" have as many or more issues, and you have to buy expensive hardware or costly software upgrades to gain access to them.
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post #30 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post
people like you!
...and there we have, yet again, your tactic du jour when it comes to those who have issues with your beloved OS.

Back to reality - Until the Linux community can recruit their collective brain trust around one standardized distribution, I fully expect, as aforementioned, that absolutely nothing will change in the next six years...within the consumer marketplace, it'll still be a boutique OS, and never become a true alternative to the established players.
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