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who doesn't think intels compiler disables AMD cpu? - Page 2

post #11 of 25
This keeps coming up every now and then. Intel made their compiler so that if it could not recognize the exact CPU it then chose an instruction set that it "knows" will work...which may not always be the best one, but it prevents a BSoD. Otherwise Intel would have had to put in optimizations for all of AMD's CPUs and I think it is understandable why they didn't do so.

People have tried to patch it, but it ends up performing worse as far as I have heard. The only thing I've never understood is why AMD didn't produce a compiler of their own. It seems they'd rather just sue Intel every so often. In the grand scheme it doesn't really matter a lot though. Most of the time an Intel CPU won't be using the best path either due to the software not supporting the best instruction set anyway.

Though yeah...I was under the impression this was finally fixed last summer.

Edit:

Nope it wasn't fixed...Intel only had to set up a fund to pay for development costs for developers that wanted to fix their code. Heh, that is kind of lame.

However, Intel's C/C++ and fortran compilers aren't the only ones out there...and AMD doesn't do all that much better even on Open 64 or GCC. So while the compiler might not help...it isn't the ultimate reason.
Edited by Vagrant Storm - 11/16/11 at 1:30pm
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post #12 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Though yeah...I was under the impression this was finally fixed last summer.
Edit:
Nope it wasn't fixed...Intel only had to set up a fund to pay for development costs for developers that wanted to fix their code. Heh, that is kind of lame.
However, Intel's C/C++ and fortran compilers aren't the only ones out there...and AMD doesn't do all that much better even on Open 64 or GCC. So while the compiler might not help...it isn't the ultimate reason.

your are right there, it is also a part of the developers who write the software to ensure that the cpu(s) gets a proper code path.
but as stated by the writer of the story Intel needs to develop towards the future not the past and present as cpu's are consistently improving.
Intel is actually hurting themselves on top of AMD and Via for not writing in this way.

we would probaly have a third choice for cpu's as it seems Via is also hit by this compiler quite hard.
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post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUGGERNAUTXTR View Post

your are right there, it is also a part of the developers who write the software to ensure that the cpu(s) gets a proper code path.
but as stated by the writer of the story Intel needs to develop towards the future not the past and present as cpu's are consistently improving.
Intel is actually hurting themselves on top of AMD and Via for not writing in this way.
we would probaly have a third choice for cpu's as it seems Via is also hit by this compiler quite hard.

Well I also think that if a programer was making a benchmark they should use the open source compilers...that, or either patch their compiler to force all CPUs to use the same instruction set. Basically set the vendor ID to force the compiler to think it is a certain CPU so that it will SSE3 no mater what for example. Just release a couple different versions and people can just choose which one they want to use.

However, since most programs use Intel's compiler as well...maybe the benches should use it since that will mimic the real world better. Until AMD releases one of their own and gets people to use it they are going to have to play by Intel's rules. They should just let it slide and just focus on whatever instruction set Intel's compiler is forcing them to use and increase performance in that area.
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post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUGGERNAUTXTR View Post

this is the biggest reason i do not trust synthetics, also why i think BD is not performing up to snuff.
Intels compiler doesn't recognize the processor and therfore gives it the slowest path. this can also affect gaming because those games could be using the Intel compiler, again skewing towards intel looking like a beast., when the truth could be that AMD's BD processor could be an absolute monster and just destroying SB.
but will never know till the compilers are revealed in all the tests and which ones are working with amd best.

Intel's compilers are used for many real-world programs because it's often the fastest compiler available, regardless of any bias.

Bulldozer doesn't look any more impressive in real world apps than it does in synthetics, and Intel's compilers are no more optimized for Bulldozer than for any other AMD processor, so cannot be used to explain any deficit in BD performance relative to older AMD architectures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joephis19 View Post

If "everyone" knows this, then why hasn't AMD or the creators of the test suites done anything to fix it?

Because an Intel biased Intel compiler is still the compiler that produces the fastest code for AMD chips in many cases. Many unbiased compilers are so much worse than Intel's that using them would just cripple performance on everything.

Also, there are workarounds and patches for Intel's compilers that remove any serious bias.

Really the compiler argument is overstated, and in the end, largely irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

People have tried to patch it, but it ends up performing worse as far as I have heard. The only thing I've never understood is why AMD didn't produce a compiler of their own.

Some patches have improved performance on AMD CPUs when ICC didn't chose the optimal instruction path for them. I'm not sure how common it is for unpatched vs. patched compliers, but I would assume most major software makers do what they can to make their programs run as well as possible on either brand.

AMD likely doesn't have the resources to make better compilers or get anyone to use them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

However, Intel's C/C++ and fortran compilers aren't the only ones out there...and AMD doesn't do all that much better even on Open 64 or GCC. So while the compiler might not help...it isn't the ultimate reason.

As and example of this, Anandtech recently mentioned that the Intel compiler (ICC 11.0) used in Cinebench 11.5/CINEMA 4D is 24% faster than the competing compilers on AMD's Opterons.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5058/amds-opteron-interlagos-6200/10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

Well I also think that if a programer was making a benchmark they should use the open source compilers...that, or either patch their compiler to force all CPUs to use the same instruction set. Basically set the vendor ID to force the compiler to think it is a certain CPU so that it will SSE3 no mater what for example. Just release a couple different versions and people can just choose which one they want to use.
However, since most programs use Intel's compiler as well...maybe the benches should use it since that will mimic the real world better. Until AMD releases one of their own and gets people to use it they are going to have to play by Intel's rules. They should just let it slide and just focus on whatever instruction set Intel's compiler is forcing them to use and increase performance in that area.

Real world programs often have biases. This is unfortunate, and unfair, but it does nothing to invalidate them.
Edited by Blameless - 11/16/11 at 4:04pm
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post #15 of 25
Thread Starter 
I am not arguing just bringing up the fact that some bias in the use of the compiler does exist, but not all programs use it and doesn't reflect that on all programs.
this is my point.

if there is a compiler that makes the program run on a correct path for amd and intel optimally this would rule out any favoritism.... running a bench mark that may favor one chip over the other is "NOT" representitive of real world, cause all programs do not use the same compiler.

in actuality the most used is GCC(free). ICC is actually a third use compiler(just because it is not free)
the writers of the program may not even be aware of the Bias in the compiler as it not a very well known issue.
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post #16 of 25
Although there are usually... problems... with Micheal's testing process, this might be of interest.
    
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post #17 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tafkar View Post

Although there are usually... problems... with Micheal's testing process, this might be of interest.

from what i know lvvm is quite a new compiler still under major development but looks as though they are getting their compiler together quite rapidly.
GCC's libraries are getting better, but they still got some work to do.

does anyone know how microsofts compiler fairs?
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post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUGGERNAUTXTR View Post

from what i know lvvm is quite a new compiler still under major development but looks as though they are getting their compiler together quite rapidly.
GCC's libraries are getting better, but they still got some work to do.
does anyone know how microsofts compiler fairs?

As far as I know Microsoft's compiler is only used when you use Visual Studio or Visual C or whatever. So that makes it the most commonly used compiler and linker out there. Everything I have read and my own experience shows it to be fairly neutral. It can be hard to get the program to be threaded though...so most programs will be one threaded and thus will always look better on Intel. (well, it is pretty easy to make multiple threads, but only one will really run at a time in my experience...though I am still playing with that. It seems that multiple threads will run when they aren't needed to and will worsen the performance of the program. I've unintentionally made like 20 cl.exe's come up in task manager from one program. tongue.gif)
Edited by Vagrant Storm - 11/17/11 at 6:32am
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post #19 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

As far as I know Microsoft's compiler is only used when you use Visual Studio or Visual C or whatever. So that makes it the most commonly used compiler and linker out there. Everything I have read and my own experience shows it to be fairly neutral. It can be hard to get the program to be threaded though...so most programs will be one threaded and thus will always look better on Intel. (well, it is pretty easy to make multiple threads, but only one will really run at a time in my experience...though I am still playing with that. It seems that multiple threads will run when they aren't needed to and will worsen the performance of the program. I've unintentionally made like 20 cl.exe's come up in task manager from one program. tongue.gif)

LOL, well I am no program writer, I just think the compilers used in bench marks need to show optimal paths used on both intel and AMD, even though programs may have a biased compiler, it would be more perceptible to me what to expect if i used a slower program or program that does not have a compiler that uses an optimal path.
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post #20 of 25
So all I got out of reading this is that AMD "sucks" because everyone cares about Intel CPUs more and therefore wouldn't bother making an optimization for AMD as well?
     
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