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New gaming rig, need part recommendations - Page 3

post #21 of 90
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pLuhhmm View Post

OCZ Vertex 3 120GB $190 shipped w/ a $20 MIR.
Crossfire XFX HD 6870 2GB $430 shipped w/ $30 MIR
HD 6870 1GB review[: http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-crossfirex-review/
GTX 570 review: http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-570-sli-review/
Notice how the GTX 570's performance isn't better in real time performance. As in, you won't notice a difference in performance in game at all. This is also with the 1GB model. Also note, you would only be running a single GTX 570 vs my proposed Crossfire HD 6870 2GB. I put in the 2GB model, since I assume you'd want to spend the extra $50/each for the added VRAM for dual monitor setup with 2560x1600 resolution, where the 2GB model would help a lot.
The RAM is fine, however I've read the heatsinks sometimes get in the way of the CPU heatsinks.

I don't think I need anything bigger than 90GB for my SSD. I only plan on putting BF3, WoW, Windows 7 and a few other programs. I think 90GB will be plenty.
post #22 of 90
Thread Starter 
I might as well grab the Batman version of the 580 GTX. I mean, who doesn't like a free game? It's the exact same card as the Superclocked 580 GTX and it's the same price.
post #23 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpShoot3r07 View Post

I don't think I need anything bigger than 90GB for my SSD. I only plan on putting BF3, WoW, Windows 7 and a few other programs. I think 90GB will be plenty.

What exactly do you want to buy?

What parts do you want and what do you want to spend total? Also, do mail in rebates factor into the final total?

Tell me this info and I'll build you the best possible with explanations.
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Phoneix
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post #24 of 90
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pLuhhmm View Post

What exactly do you want to buy?
What parts do you want and what do you want to spend total? Also, do mail in rebates factor into the final total?
Tell me this info and I'll build you the best possible with explanations.

Well it's in my first post. Budget is around $1300, I already have a few parts picked out on page 2(http://www.overclock.net/t/1169077/new-gaming-rig-need-part-recommendations/10#post_15707282) and I can probably re-use my HDD and PSU. I want to stick with Nvidia.

I also need a 1920x1080 monitor.
post #25 of 90
Ok in short this is what you need to run on ultra in your budget.

i5 2500k
2x4gb ram
gtx 580
lg 2441v-bn 24" 1080p monitor
Asus p8z68-v-pro

Reuse your 750TX psu.

but a hdd later when the prices drop again. unless you want to spend $120 for a 1tb hdd.
post #26 of 90
Get the i7 if you ever get into Encoding like i did i will be very useful i myself wished i went witht he i7 even tho i game most of the time
post #27 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpShoot3r07 View Post

Ok, well you guys have convinced me me to get the i5 2500k and use the $100 I save to get the 580 GTX applaud.gif

That or the SLI 460s are your best bets, honestly. That's a good decision. Also, there's absolutely no reason that you can't overclock the i5-2500k. Follow the link in my signature and take a look at the BIOS profiles people have posted. It's very easy to OC to 4.5 GHz (from the stock 3.3 GHz) without going crazy on temperatures and also without sacrificing the power-saving variable cpu frequency that the core line are capable of handling. Right now I'm posting at 1.6 GHz and yet when I game, it's at 4.7 GHz. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpShoot3r07 View Post


Well I don't plan on OCing anything. My friend is telling me that the 16GB RAM I have picked out will be fine since I don't plan on overclocking. From what I understand is that the 2x4GB sticks are good WITH an OC but the 4x4GB sticks without an OC are around the same as the 2x4GB sticks. Does that sound right?

Maybe I'm a little confused by your post. Do you have a dumb down version so I could possibly understand better biggrin.gif Is it bad if I were to keep the 16GB RAM I have?

Your friend is wrong; I'll explain why in layman's terms: (This explanation isn't entirely technically correct. I'm oversimplifying some things and so on.)

The really short explanation, as simple as I can make it, goes like this:

You drive across the country in a Ferrari that does 180 miles per hour, but has to stop for gas every 150 miles. This is what the ultra-over-clocked guys do with their insanely fast timing 2 x 1 GB or 2 x 2 GB RAM sticks.

You drive across the country in a sleeper-cab semi fuel tanker that's been modified to use its own storage tanks as fuel tanks and you never have to stop for gas at all. This is what the ultra-high-end 3d modeling rigs do with their slow timing 32 GB, 64 GB, or 128 GB solutions.

Or you can hit the sweet spot. You can drive across the country in a Corvette (or Mustang or Charger if you like Fords or Dodges) that does 120 miles per hour and stops for gas once every 300 miles, right about the time that you need to take a break, stretch your legs, hit the head, and have some food. This is what having 8 GB of high performance RAM is like. It will run every game you want it to run without needing to ask your hard drive to spin up for extra storage (or without burning a hole in your SSD asking for extra storage).


The really long, moderately technical, but still layman's terms version of the explanation is below:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

There are four slots on the board, we'll call them 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Slots 1 and 3 are a "pair" and they work together in a "push-pull" type setup. The external memory clock (which is at a given frequency, let's call it 100 MHz) has a HI and a LO signal. On the HI signal, it's sending data to slot 1 while at the same time it's reading data from slot 3. Then when the signal goes to LO it's reading data from slot 1 while it's sending data to slot 3. This is what I'm calling a "push-pull" as it's doing two jobs at once. This HI-LO transition happens 100,000 times every second. The idea that slot 1 and slot 3 are working as a push-pull pair is called "Dual-Channel" mode. This means that when you install RAM you want to do it into the colored slots that match one another. Typically, there will be four slots on a board, two of them blue and two of them grey or two red, two white, or something like that. By putting a DIMM (or stick of RAM) into each of the grey slots, and leaving the blue slots empty, for example, you're telling the motherboard that you want to work the RAM in a Dual-Channel mode. This makes the effective speed of your RAM on the external clock 200 MHz. (Remember, that clock is still only at 100 MHz, but since we're having it perform an operation on the HI and the LO phase simultaneously, we call it a 200 MHz external clock.)

Now, the RAM also has an internal clock, and that's where you get into RAM timings. DDR3 RAM, for example, runs at 8 times the speed of its external clock. So we take that 200 MHz we have as our external clock and we multiply that by 8. This is where you get the DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) designation from. That 1600 represents the external 200 MHz clock we have multiplied by the 8x internal clock for a final internal RAM frequency of 1600 MHz. (1.6 GHz).

But there's more going on inside the RAM than that. Since we're writing and reading data to and from multiple physical chips on the DIMM unit and also doing this millions of times per second, we have to have a way to regulate it all inside the chip and that's where you get into things such as CL, which is Clock cycles between sending a column address to the memory and the beginning of the data in response, tRCD which is Clock cycles between row activate and reads/writes and tRP which is Clock cycles between row precharge and activate.

That's probably more than you want to know about RAM and it's beyond the scope of layman's terms, so a simplification that the industry uses is to call RAM "Cas Latency" 8 or 9 or 10 or whatever, and then publish the "Timings" of 9-9-9-24 for a CL 9 module, 8-8-8-24 for a CL8 module, and in some of the really high performance DDR3 RAM you can get 7-8-7-24 timings in CL7 modules.


The lower the numbers in those timings are, the better. And the higher the number after the DDR, the better. DDR3 is better than DDR2. DDR3 1600 is better than DDR3 1333. DDR3 2133 is better than 1600, and so on.

So what we want is a combination of high frequency (DDR3 1600 for example) and low Cas Latency or fast timings. CL8 at 8-8-8-24, for example.

This means that our memory is clocked very fast and this means that we can read and write data from and to it very quickly, taking advantage of that Dual-Channel "push-pull" mode we mentioned.

However, all of these clock frequencies have to be timed perfectly between chips. And the HI and LO values on those chips in our RAM come from the voltage that our motherboard is supplying to our RAM. The more chips we put on, the higher the voltage has to be. This is something that's handled automatically by the motherboard. The problem comes when we put too much voltage to a RAM stick, or DIMM. We either melt it and ruin it, or we introduce "False HI" values when we really want a "LO" value. The reason for this is also probably beyond the scope of layman's terms, but the simple explanation is that the voltage isn't perfectly square "HI and LO" 0.000V and 1.5000V for example. Our voltage, even though we want it to be ON/OFF or HI-LO on our commands is really slightly analogue, like a sine wave. So to prevent our RAM from making mistakes and mistaking a 0.2500 V signal as a "HI" what we have to do is slow it down a little bit. By slowing it down, we allow that 1.5V HI signal to bleed off to a stable 0.000V low signal so that it won't be mistaken for a HI. By slowing it down, we also give it time to develop a good 1.5000V HI signal on the high end, rather than 1.3565V or something. Basically, by timing it too quickly, it's taking a snap-shot of the __----____----____--- pattern at the wrong time, and not seeing it as a square wave. It's seeing more like a sawtooth _/---\_ and when it takes its reading on the / or the \ rather than the - hi or _ low, we have issues.

This is why, when you fully populate the DIMM slots (or fill up the motherboard with as many sticks of RAM as it will hold) that you slow things down. The motherboard has to supply power to all four modules rather than just two. Furthermore, the bigger each module is, (4GB module vs 2GB module) the more power it takes too. So the motherboard sees your 4 modules at 4 GB each and it knows it needs lots of power to feed them all. It supplies that, but to keep your RAM from having errors (giving you Blue Screen of Death) it has to slow down several things. First, it slows down your internal multipliers. It does use the dual-channel, so you get that 200 MHz external, but it can't push your 1600 MHz ram at its full x8 internal multiplier for 1600, so it slows it down to a final value of 1333 MHz. Furthermore, it can't run that at the 8-8-8-24 timings either, because then your internal timings won't match your internal speeds, so it slows it down to something like 11-11-11-32, for example.

Also, with all four DIMMs populated, we have only pairs 1 and 3 working as a push-pull pair. Pairs 2 and 4 are also working as a push-pull pair, but the two pairs are independent from one another. In other words, you have 2 DIMMS in dual-channel mode, and 2 more DIMMs in dual-channel mode. You do not get quad channel mode. So this is an added bottleneck at slowing things down.

The end result is that you now have 16 GB of RAM, which is a large amount, but it's actual timings are slow, at 1.333 GHz and 11-11-11-32. This means that the speed of the data you're sending to and from the RAM is slowed down accordingly, resulting in longer loading times, slower performance, and so on.

If you cut it down to 8 GB of RAM, which is still quite a bit, you can run at the full 1600 MHz and 8-8-8-24 timings. This means that although you have less RAM on your system, the speed of the data being sent to and from it is fast.

We haven't even overclocked our RAM yet, and we're getting a 25% performance increase in our speeds, just by going with 8 GB of RAM.


So why do they sell 16 GB packages? You make more money on 4 x 4 GB than you do on 2 x 4 GB for one, and if people want it, why not give it to them? That's one reason. Another, and more relevant reason is that some people are editing massive video files and they need 16 GB of RAM otherwise they'd have to use the pagefile on their HDD and that's slow. For those people, it's the size of the RAM that matters more than the speed. That's why they're willing to run at 16 GB, 32 GB, or even 64 GB of RAM on some of the high end graphic workstations and such.

Gamers only need 8 GB of RAM to handle every game on the market today at maximum settings and with a pagefile disabled. Extreme overclockers, who want the absolute most out of their systems will often go with 2 x 2GB in order to get wicked fast timings in the CL5 range. Although this makes those insanely high RAM timings look awesome on benchmarks, they're going to suffer in real-world throughput on their RAM and they'll have to use a page-file to help load games that want more than the 4 GB of memory they have available. The sweet spot is actually at about 6 GB of RAM, but the problem is, they don't make things in 3's in the PC world. Things come in 2's, so your options are 1, 2, 4, or 8. I don't know of any 6 GB or 3 GB modules. So, your choice is 2 x 1 GB of wickedly high performance RAM for insane CPU benchmarks and no real utility for anything else, 2 x 2 GB of RAM at very high timings for an overclocked rig that will still need to use a page-file to load textures or 8 GB of relatively high performance RAM with no page file to run your games blazingly fast but not enhance your e-peen on your benchmarks as well. tongue.gif Or, on the opposite extreme, you get 16GB, 32GB, 64GB, or even 128GB of RAM for your graphics editing workstation that's using quadro cards and lots of CUDAs to pump out insanely high resolution 3D renderings without thrashing your hard drive.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpShoot3r07 View Post


Well about the SSD, I'm not really sure why I chose it. I just searched newegg for 90GB and Sata 3 and there were only 4 options (2 of which were out of stock) the 2 options were two Corsair SSDs and the red one had a $15 mail in rebate for a little better performance.

And for the monitor I don't want something as big as 27''. Maybe a 23" monitor at 1920x1080.

1920x1080 is 1080p and full HD 16:9 It's one of the most popular formats in use today. That's a good choice to go for.

I know absolutely nothing about SSDs other than that you do not want to defrag them ever, that you want to make sure your OS handles TRIM, and that they eventually do wear out after so many read/write cycles, but that they're faster than traditional spinning HDDs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisguitar View Post

Ok in short this is what you need to run on ultra in your budget.

i5 2500k
2x4gb ram
gtx 580
lg 2441v-bn 24" 1080p monitor
Asus p8z68-v-pro

Reuse your 750TX psu.

but a hdd later when the prices drop again. unless you want to spend $120 for a 1tb hdd.


I agree 100%

Then again, if you look at my signature and my "Rig" profile, that's what I built. biggrin.gif
Edited by shad0wfax - 11/17/11 at 5:24pm
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Thorbjorn
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post #28 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpShoot3r07 View Post

Well it's in my first post. Budget is around $1300, I already have a few parts picked out on page 2(http://www.overclock.net/t/1169077/new-gaming-rig-need-part-recommendations/10#post_15707282) and I can probably re-use my HDD and PSU. I want to stick with Nvidia.
I also need a 1920x1080 monitor.

LIAN LI Lancool PC-K63 Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case

ASUS MT276HE Black 27" 2ms(GTG) HDMI Widescreen LCD Monitor

2x XFX HD 6870 2GB

G.SKILL Sniper Low Voltage Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600Mhz 1.25v

ASRock Z68 Extreme3 Gen3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard

Intel Core i5-2500K

Promo code: EMCJJJC37

Total: $1,177.03 shipped

$100 in mail in rebates.


Case: Side window, great air flow, blue LED fans, amazing cable management, USB 3.0, tool-less design. You can't get much better.

Monitor: 27in, 2ms, 400 cd/m2, 1920 x 1080, 2 HDMI inputs, VGA, coaxil, and headphone input.

GPU: Unbeatable price:performance, eyefinity, low power usage for CF (~420w max on +12v rails), destroys any single GPU (including GTX 580) by like 30FPS.

RAM: Low volts, so it runs cold. Lots of overclocking room.

Mobo: Gen3, PCI-E x8 x8, supports PCI-E 3.0 with Ivy Bridge, z68, USB 3.0, SATA 3.0.

CPU: Uh.. It's the 2500k...


Then just throw in whatever SSD, preferably a OCZ 3 series.

If you don't want a 27in (for whatever reason....)

Dell Ultrasharp u2312HM 23in eIPS monitor for $239
Edited by pLuhhmm - 11/17/11 at 5:11pm
Phoneix
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post #29 of 90
Well as others have advised u in this thread i ll tell u that the difference between 2500k and 2600k is 0.1 GHz and Hyperthreading mainly which plays no important role if none at all in gaming so in my opinion 2500k would be a really better choice.Secondly if u dont plan to overclock at all dont need to buy "K" version although the difference in price is not so big so u can aswell buy the "K" just to have the option to overclock.

Also i would like to advice you not to buy http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145347&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL111711&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL111711-_-EMC-111711-Index-_-DesktopMemory-_-20145347-L0A for RAM because if u eventually decide to overclock which helps gaming perfomance reasonably u would have big problems fitting your CPU cooler in.

Instead i suggest you buy http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233198 which has the exact same price and perfomance but taking up considerably less space.In addition you could also buy the 8GB set same Vengeance Low Profile since for gaming 16GB at this moment seems a bit overkill except if you are going futureproof.

Your PSU seems fine to me except if u decide to go sli at some time i would really suggest some 800-850w+.

Now for your graphic card It’s entirely possible to get a good experience in BF3 out of a GeForce GTX 580 at 1920x1080 or lower at ultra settings, though in real-world game play you still run into occasional stuttering.

A GeForce GTX 570 handles 1680x1050 pretty well. However, I’m willing to bet that you didn’t buy a $300+ card to play on a 17” screen. Two GTX 570s should handle Ultra quality with aplomb at 1920x1080 but one is not reccomended and advisable.

You should really read Tomshardware article about Battlefield 3 Performance: 30+ Graphics Cards, Benchmarked:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/battlefield-3-graphics-performance,3063.html DO READ IT!

Your SSD seems fine as your case also.

So as a cocnlusion try to save some money from your CPU when 2500K should be more than enough and invest some more in your graphic card if BF3 is really what you care for.

GOOD LUCK:)
Edited by Zanklont - 11/17/11 at 5:18pm
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My Gaming Rig :)
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post #30 of 90
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shad0wfax View Post


This is why, when you fully populate the DIMM slots (or fill up the motherboard with as many sticks of RAM as it will hold) that you slow things down. The motherboard has to supply power to all four modules rather than just two. Furthermore, the bigger each module is, (4GB module vs 2GB module) the more power it takes too. So the motherboard sees your 4 modules at 4 GB each and it knows it needs lots of power to feed them all. It supplies that, but to keep your RAM from having errors (giving you Blue Screen of Death) it has to slow down several things. First, it slows down your internal multipliers. It does use the dual-channel, so you get that 200 MHz external, but it can't push your 1600 MHz ram at its full x8 internal multiplier for 1600, so it slows it down to a final value of 1333 MHz. Furthermore, it can't run that at the 8-8-8-24 timings either, because then your internal timings won't match your internal speeds, so it slows it down to something like 11-11-11-32, for example.
Also, with all four DIMMs populated, we have only pairs 1 and 3 working as a push-pull pair. Pairs 2 and 4 are also working as a push-pull pair, but the two pairs are independent from one another. In other words, you have 2 DIMMS in dual-channel mode, and 2 more DIMMs in dual-channel mode. You do not get quad channel mode. So this is an added bottleneck at slowing things down.
The end result is that you now have 16 GB of RAM, which is a large amount, but it's actual timings are slow, at 1.333 GHz and 11-11-11-32. This means that the speed of the data you're sending to and from the RAM is slowed down accordingly, resulting in longer loading times, slower performance, and so on.
If you cut it down to 8 GB of RAM, which is still quite a bit, you can run at the full 1600 MHz and 8-8-8-24 timings. This means that although you have less RAM on your system, the speed of the data being sent to and from it is fast.

That makes a lot more sense. I guess I'm gonna go with the g.skill set you recommended to me.

Also, to everyone else. How do all my parts look? I still need a heatsink and CD/DVD burner/drive any suggestions for those?

here's my wishlist. Hopefully you guys can view it.
https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?ID=14016114

If not

GPU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130590

CPU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115072

RAM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231445

SSD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233205

MOBO
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131730

CASE
Thermaltake case

HDD
See sig

PSU
See sig

Still need Heatsink, CD-DVD burner/drive. What are your guy's thoughts on the MOBO?
Edited by SharpShoot3r07 - 11/17/11 at 5:25pm
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