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[TheWashingtonPost] 2nd Experiment Confirms Faster than Light Travel - Page 7

post #61 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narzon View Post

I'm speaking with the theoretical assumption that this is proven. We can discuss outcomes before they're verified, you know?

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", said the wise Carl Sagan. Relativity is not broken, I highly doubt it is. This one repeated experiment at CERN is certainly not nearly enough evidence, in my view. It deals with fickle particles called neutrinos that are shapeshifters, and we still don't know much about them.

Have a look at what Wikipedia says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino#Speed

Wikipedia suggests that quantum theories may explain this anomaly, and any person who has watched NOVA's "The Elegant Universe" or has studied graduate physics knows that relativiry and quantum mechanics have trouble uniting together (Niels Bohr and Einstein themselves admitted this, who were pioneers in the fields of quantum physics and relativity, respectably ). Both theories aren't wrong, they describe nature on a very large scale (relativity) and a very small scale (quanta), there just isn't a theory that describes both.
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post #62 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchLinuxFTW View Post

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", said the wise Carl Sagan. Relativity is not broken, I highly doubt it is. This one repeated experiment at CERN is certainly not nearly enough evidence, in my view. It deals with fickle particles called neutrinos that are shapeshifters, and we still don't know much about them.
Have a look at what Wikipedia says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino#Speed
Wikipedia suggests that quantum theories may explain this anomaly, and any person who has watched NOVA's "The Elegant Universe" or has studied graduate physics knows that relativiry and quantum mechanics have trouble uniting together (Niels Bohr and Einstein themselves admitted this, who were pioneers in the fields of quantum physics and relativity, respectably ). Both theories aren't wrong, they describe nature on a very large scale (relativity) and a very small scale (quanta), there just isn't a theory that describes both.

http://www.science20.com/third_millennium_physics/faster_light_neutrinos_and_relativity_ii_million_dollar_bet-84340
post #63 of 68

I lack a math background, so a lot of his reasoning is lost to me with just two reads this early in the morning.

Isn't he just saying that Neutrinos are incompatible with the model for limiting velocity?
Edited by _02 - 11/30/11 at 5:41am
    
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post #64 of 68
I been mulling over this and remembered something i read which explains why relativity can't be applied to this

the theory of relativity was penned on the assumption that the speed of light was infinite

and it was shown afterwards that it was not so a long time after the theory was accepted as universal

anyone care to investigate further please do I'm no science buff
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post #65 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidian86 View Post

I been mulling over this and remembered something i read which explains why relativity can't be applied to this
the theory of relativity was penned on the assumption that the speed of light was infinite
and it was shown afterwards that it was not so a long time after the theory was accepted as universal
anyone care to investigate further please do I'm no science buff

As far as I know, the speed of light is not infinite, it is the constant c in a vacuum. You said that this the fact that light's speed was infinite was proved later by an experiment, please link me to it if you can find it.

From wikipedia:
Quote:
* The Principle of Relativity – The laws by which the states of physical systems undergo change are not affected, whether these changes of state be referred to the one or the other of two systems in uniform translatory motion relative to each other.
* The Principle of Invariant Light Speed – "... light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity [speed] c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body." (from the preface).

That is, light in vacuum propagates with the speed c (a fixed constant, independent of direction) in at least one system of inertial coordinates (the "stationary system"), regardless of the state of motion of the light source.

To translate:

1) All inertial reference frames are equally valid. There is no absolute reference frame (see the Michelson-Morely Experiment )
2) The speed of light is the same in all inertial refrerence frames, regardless of the speed of the body that is emitting said light.

Eintein reasoned that this was true because if it was not, the laws of physics would be different in every different part of the universe..
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post #66 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchLinuxFTW View Post

As far as I know, the speed of light is not infinite, it is the constant c in a vacuum. You said that this the fact that light's speed was infinite was proved later by an experiment, please link me to it if you can find it.
From wikipedia:
To translate:
1) All inertial reference frames are equally valid. There is no absolute reference frame (see the Michelson-Morely Experiment )
2) The speed of light is the same in all inertial refrerence frames, regardless of the speed of the body that is emitting said light.
Eintein reasoned that this was true because if it was not, the laws of physics would be different in every different part of the universe..

sorry for the confusion i posted that from a phone half awake

einstien pinned the theory of relativity under the assumption that the speed of light is infinite

and after his theory was accepted it was later found that the speed of light was in fact not infinite

thats why the theory does not make sense in this case it might be correct in some instances but its not correct as it was initially intended
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post #67 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidian86 View Post

einstien pinned the theory of relativity under the assumption that the speed of light is infinite
and after his theory was accepted it was later found that the speed of light was in fact not infinite
thats why the theory does not make sense in this case it might be correct in some instances but its not correct as it was initially intended

Still, I believe you are wrong in saying that Einstein pinned the theory of relativity under the assumption that the speed of light is infinite. If you read an English translation of his initial 1905 paper on special relativity which was his first paper to do with the concepts of relativity, you will see in the second paragraph:
Quote:
Examples of this sort, together with the unsuccessful attempts to discover any motion of the earth relatively to the “light medium,” suggest that the phenomena of electrodynamics as well as of mechanics possess no properties corresponding to the idea of absolute rest. They suggest rather that, as has already been shown to the first order of small quantities, the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all frames of reference for which the equations of mechanics hold good. We will raise this conjecture (the purport of which will hereafter be called the “Principle of Relativity”) to the status of a postulate, and also introduce another postulate, which is only apparently irreconcilable with the former, namely, that light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body. These two postulates suffice for the attainment of a simple and consistent theory of the electrodynamics of moving bodies based on Maxwell's theory for stationary bodies. The introduction of a “luminiferous ether” will prove to be superfluous inasmuch as the view here to be developed will not require an “absolutely stationary space” provided with special properties, nor assign a velocity-vector to a point of the empty space in which electromagnetic processes take place.
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post #68 of 68

One of the comments on the article by a Eugene Stefanovich argues such:
Quote:
On the other hand, if we believe in the correctness of OPERA measurements, then the time of flight is 60 nanoseconds too short for the travel distance of 730 km. These time interval and distance were measured between the proton beam hitting the graphite target and the neutrino registration event in the OPERA detector. Again, if OPERA results are correct, then the timing of the two events cannot be questioned. This leaves us with only one uncertainty: the length of the path traveled by the neutrino.

Note that the space location from which the neutrino starts its journey is not known experimentally. It is only assumed that the sequence of trajectories proton->meson->neutrino is continuous (without gaps). We can be sure that the proton-meson transformation vertex is well localized, because similar events can be easily seen in bubble chambers. So, the most suspicious place is where the meson decays into a muon and a neutrino. There is no doubt that the meson's (pi-meson or K-meson) decay into the muon occurs locally. (The tracks of such decay events can be seen clearly in bubble chambers or emulsions.) However, it is not clear if the neutrino emerges from the same decay vertex. Experimentally, there is no evidence which would support the (crucial) assumption that meson, muon and neutrino trajectories are joined at the same decay vertex. It may be true that the neutrino trajectory starts very far (e.g., 18 meters away) from the meson-muon vertex, which would explain the missing 60 nanoseconds. This idea is not as stupid as it seems from the first sight. In my work http://vixra.org/pdf/1110.0052v2.pdf it was shown that the distant creation of neutrino can be accommodated within a very simple quantum relativistic model.

If we eliminate what's impossible (an error in the OPERA experiment and the superluminal neutrino speed) then we are left with something (the gap between meson and neutrino trajectories), which seems improbable but must be true.

Though, thanks for sharing the article, it was interesting and well written.thumb.gif
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