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[emsnews] Japan: TEPCO predicts possible "china syndrome". - Page 20

post #191 of 242
spike you do realize that water boils at temps lower then 100 degrees as you increase in altitude due to lower pressure. I'm no expert on heat conductivity and what not but the water will more then likely be boiling at a lower temp then 100 degrees Celsius..
Concrete stores and conducts heat as far as I know.
Edited by Eagle1337 - 12/6/11 at 11:19am
post #192 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle1337 View Post

spike you do realize that water boils at temps lower then 100 degrees as you increase in altitude due to lower pressure. I'm no expert on heat conductivity and what not but the water will more then likely be boiling at a lower temp then 100 degrees Celsius..
Concrete stores and conducts heat as far as I know.
The nuclear plant in question is at sea level...
post #193 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontpwnmebro View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtSpike View Post

Does concrete store heat, or give off heat? rolleyes.gif

lol. this is pretty funny. im going to leave now.

Rhetorical question was rhetorical.

tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle1337 View Post

spike you do realize that water boils at temps lower then 100 degrees as you increase in altitude due to lower pressure. I'm no expert on heat conductivity and what not but the water will more then likely be boiling at a lower temp then 100 degrees Celsius..
Concrete stores and conducts heat as far as I know.

Pressure does have a large impact on the temperature it takes for an item to change phases. "D

Just not at sea level, although trapped under ground with more pressure.... hmmmm....

trololololol.
Edited by Nocturin - 12/6/11 at 11:29am
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post #194 of 242
Super heated water is not steam.
Super heated water is water at 374 C under pressure.

The first quote was to show the types of energy transfer through the concrete.
The temperature is not important, that is just a place holder.
The other fact that that article does not take into account is the heat capacity of the concrete and the actually rate of heat energy transfer.

It is easier to imagine the 3 m of concrete as being 105 C with only the outer 20 or 30 cm as actually having a gradient.

The second quote is to dispel the many nay sayers that believe concrete does not conduct heat.

The point of closest heat loss is important because that will be the factor that most influences any heat loss rather than where the concrete will reach air, easily 10 m away where the ground is only 3 or 4m.

Heat capacity is the energy required to change the heat energy within a substance.
Heat capacity will reach a finite limit of what is input into it.
Once that level is achieved the excess heat energy is free to go elsewhere, like into the ground.

The picture I included earlier if looked at as concrete would have a good 4/5 of its body as red with only those edges as the gradient after several months of constant energy input.

Theoretically you could boil water at sea level at 99C and actually have a percentage of water molecules with enough energy to phase change into steam.


Edit: Random spelling errors.
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post #195 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelbarrage View Post

Super heated water is not steam.
Super heated water is water at 374 C under pressure.

.../snip

What is your point... exactly? Super heated water...under pressure... will become steam as soon as the pressure is no longer there... soo no pressure + 100c(theoritical) temps + water = steam

...uh duh...?
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post #196 of 242
Super heated water can only form at high enough temperatures.
100 C under pressure is only 100 C it doesn't magically become superheated.
This was to better clear up the second quote I posted.
The water underneath the concrete will be confined and that is the upper limit it can sustain until a phase change.
If the system however is open the steam will just escape.
The given temperature difference doesn't mean that the concrete is 374 degrees but it could be well more than that.
As long as the concrete radiates energy at 100 C or whatever the given equivalent in unit area, water will boil.
That is regardless of the gradient.
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post #197 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelbarrage View Post

Super heated water is not steam.
Super heated water is water at 374 C under pressure.
The first quote was to show the types of energy transfer through the concrete.
The temperature is not important, that is just a place holder.
The other fact that that article does not take into account is the heat capacity of the concrete and the actually rate of heat energy transfer.
It is easier to imagine the 3 m of concrete as being 105 C with only the outer 20 or 30 cm as actually having a gradient.
I don't agree that the 3 m of concrete would be 105C, but even if I did, if the outer 20 or 30 cm has a gradient, IT WOULDN'T BE 105C. THEREFORE IT COULDN'T BOIL WATER.
Quote:
The second quote is to dispel the many nay sayers that believe concrete does not conduct heat.
The point of closest heat loss is important because that will be the factor that most influences any heat loss rather than where the concrete will reach air, easily 10 m away where the ground is only 3 or 4m.
Heat capacity is the energy required to change the heat energy within a substance.
Heat capacity will reach a finite limit of what is input into it.
Once that level is achieved the excess heat energy is free to go elsewhere, like into the ground.
So you're saying that concrete will retain ALL heat until it hits a certain level of heat, THEN start giving it out?

Why is a concrete sidewalk cold in the winter? It should have retained 105C from the summer, according to your "theory".
Quote:
The picture I included earlier if looked at as concrete would have a good 4/5 of its body as red with only those edges as the gradient after several months of constant energy input.
Theoretically you could boil water at sea level at 99C and actually have a percentage of water molecules with enough energy to phase change into steam.
Edit: Random spelling errors.
Completely disagree. It would have dissipated the heat before it came even close to having 4/5 of the concrete reach 105C.

Also, you still haven't addressed my main point. If heat doesn't dissipate from concrete easily, and indeed stays inside chunks of concrete for months at a time, how on earth would it be able to boil water, since it would have to dissipate heat in order to do so?
post #198 of 242
What was the argument again?

'cus now I'm lost. It seems that it's been invalidated.

doh.gif
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post #199 of 242
Concrete can only retain so much energy if it has a constant heat capacity.
Think of it as a bathtub with a small drain
If more water is input into the bathtub than drains, it will slowly fill up.
The drain is analogous to the natural thermal diffusivity of concrete, which will be near to the ground temperature.
Once the tub reaches near the top it will encounter the overflow drain, this is the heat gradient of the outer shell of the concrete where it will be affected by the ground in a short period of time.
If the water is still pouring in fast enough the tub will over flow.
The overflowing water is what heat energy is escaping the system.
As long as even a drop of water gets out it will be doing work.
The rates at which work is done is dependent on the difference in between energies.
105 C will boil little water very slowly but if it is 600 C then it will create lots of superheated water or steam.
The difference between the two rates are simply the quantities of heat flow.

Edit:
If it makes more sense to people, if we assume the ground is 23 C then we can bump up the material temperature to 124 C and have the same area of input as area of heat loss and still have a difference of 101 C at the outer surface of the concrete.
This will negate any heat storage properties of the concrete.

The basis for this argument is that concrete is such a good insulator some portion of it will be at a steady 124 C creating a conduit that wont be affected by heat loss in any distal positions.
If we look at it this way then there is some portion of 101 C heat being applied to the ground.

Also remember that concrete does have water in its structure and that the steam observed may be coming from the concrete. (just an alternative idea)
Edited by Steelbarrage - 12/6/11 at 12:12pm
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post #200 of 242
so is this further proof that the cores are not, as has been stated, cooling down, but actually maintaining or increasing in temperature...

ya?
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