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post #61 of 320
I've had power supplies from Antec, Thermaltake, and OCZ die on me within a year after their warranty expired. What's more is that I paid a lot for all 3 of those PSU's so I expected a quality product. That was not the case with any of them.

However, I now have 2 Corsair PSU's, one with a 5 years warranty, and one with a 7 year warranty. What's even more interesting is that I paid less for each of those units than I did for any other single power supply I've ever bought. The Corsair units are more quiet, more stable, have a longer warranty, and are cheaper than other units I've purchased in the past. The other thing I like is that Corsair doesn't lie/cover up their specs. They stand behind their products, and I respect them for that.

There are many other manufacturers that have been playing catch up since Corsair and Seasonic began their tyrannic rise to dominance, and for that, I believe the industry is better. We now have more efficient power supplies at reasonable prices that come bundled with good warranties. While it is a little scary that Corsair and Seasonic have become the powers that they have, the industry is immensely better than it was a mere 5 years ago. Back then, I paid $150 for a crappy OCZ GameXStream 700watt PSU. That unit had only 2 PCI-e 6-pin power connectors, and as soon as I started running a game on a system containing a Core 2 Duo and an 8800 GTX, the fan would ramp up and become quite audible. What's worse is as soon as I upgraded to a Phenom II quad core and HD 5870, the thing remained audible all the time. After about 6 months of running this power supply on the newer system, my system began shutting down randomly, and the PSU became even louder. This isn't some crappy 400-watt PSU we're talking about. It was rated for 700-watts. A Phenom II quad core and 5870 should have drawn around 400-watts with the system fully loaded.

What fixed this? A Corsair HX750 PSU. It didn't just fix one issue... it fixed EVERY issue. What's even more amazing is that I paid $20 less for the Corsair HX750 than I did for the OCZ GXS 700-watt. You don't need the specs as you probably already know them, but the Corsair HX PSU is night-and-day better than the OCZ one was. To this day, the HX 750 and the TX 650 in my wife's system are inaudible and perfectly stable.


So why is Corsair and Seasonic so high and mighty, bordering on a cult-like status? It's because their products do what they're supposed to do. There are no compromises. They work as they are intended to. You pay for the quality, but it's worth every penny. Now, if other power supply manufacturers would like to compete, please let them, but I have yet to see another manufacturer that offers such a high warranty at a reasonable price on their products. I welcome competition with open arms, and I can't wait to see the day that Corsair/Seasonic are dethroned. That will be a good day because that means someone has undercut them on price without compromising quality.
Edited by Mad Pistol - 12/2/11 at 7:57am
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post #62 of 320
the Rosewill HIVE series has so far been a very good comptiteor to my corsair HX850. It too is modular, it is a 650 watt PSU, has high quality cables, is quiet, and is 80+ ceritified. I love it so far, I was driving an overclocked 2600k and overclocked 560 Ti on it with no problems whatsoever
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post #63 of 320
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Sonic Rep View Post

Hi Everyone, sorry if this may be a bit long winded.
We are very fortunate to have a great company founded and led engineers with focus on quality and innovation. We have employees who have been with us for the past 15, 20 years and some since the inception of the company over 35 years ago. This history and continuity is vital to the design and manufacturing of analog devices such as power supplies. As well, we are proud to have the opportunity to work with excellent partners and to have the support of so many consumers, especially, at times, for forgiving us of our occasional missteps.
The worldwide PSU market is billions of dollars per year and the consumer retail market is actually just a small part. There are may excellent manufacturers who are exclusively in the retail channel, some exclusively in system integration and there are companies like Sea Sonic with a bit of both. In fact, in the overall scheme of things our combined delivered volume is far from making us a part of any oligopoly, but we do like to consider ourselves as one of the most advanced in technology and this is not in line to oligopoly.
The polls’ results are a pleasant surprise, but possibly the demographics may skew the data. Within the PSU forums, most likely the respondents are PC enthusiasts and possibly our products may enjoy a higher level of positive interest because our products often appeal to the enthusiasts.
The PC market is one of the most competitive markets today and we often wish we had Google or Apple’s margins and a cash hoard of 70+ billion dollars, but this is not the case. Our customers and end consumers all have choices and if we have the need to raise prices by 20% and still keep our customers, then it must mean either our competitors are doing the same or the something great we have to offer has that price structure.
There are many great brands on the market today, more than ever, and this competition challenges us to innovate. We were one of the first to incorporate auto insertion for PCB production and later on SMT, all in pursuit of quality. We were one of the first to increase our product's efficiency, which so happens coincided with the 80Plus initiative thereby giving us the opportunity to be the first to achieve 80Plus and the first to 80Plus Gold. Unfortunately, we were not the first Platinum to market but we were not far behind and we believe our platform is one of the best.
At Sea Sonic, our focus has always been quality and innovation and even if one day we are so lucky to "control the market" like that of Android and iOS in the smartphone market, we will still pursuit quality and innovation because our company is run by engineers who wants to bring the best to the market and maintain our commitments to our customers.

Thanks for stopping by. smile.gif

The PSU industry is very large indeed, billions of dollars, and hundreds of players. I constantly find out about new OEMs who have never produced an ATX power supply, let alone an enthusiast part like SeaSonic X (Etasis comes to mind; they built my notebook's brick). But I'm talking about a specific part of the market, the retail ATX power supply market. This rules out all industrial and embedded PSUs, server PSUs, laptop PSUs, and ATX PSUs included in pre-built systems ("OEM" units). This is the portion of the market I most concern myself with here, along with a bit of the OEM, laptop, and server markets.

Here are my concerns: there are dozens of brands in the retail PSU space; let's guesstimate 30 major players in the North American market. Of those only ~20 bother with supplying enthusiast grade parts. These enthusiast power supplies are designed and built by only a handful of companies: SeaSonic, Channel Well, Delta, Enhance, FSP, Enermax, Sirtec, Great Wall. These are the companies whose engineers are competing to bring the highest performance to the enthusiast segment.

The problem is that the space of power supply brands is relatively fluid. Brands come and go, form and die. No one ever thought Corsair would become one of the foremost PSU brands back in 2006. But then here we are. Mushkin or Xigmatek or Gigabyte might have become the next big thing; but they all came and went with little fanfare as their sales were all taken by people who'd rather use a familiar, reliable Corsair unit; even though Corsair had themselves only been around in that market for a couple years!

However, the PSU manufacturer market is much less fluid. When a company gets big or dies, it's big news. When Enermax bought Impervio, and then went through them with a carving knife leaving only a few engineers and technology licenses, it was big news. When Great Wall came out of nowhere with quality units, it made waves. But overall the ATX PSU manufacturing market itself is stable. If a company has trouble making enthusiast power supplies, they move to the mainstream segment, or servers. Or vice versa.

But what happens when all of the enthusiast power supply market is gobbled up by one or two companies, regardless of the actual brands they're sold under? What happens when some executive looks at sales of Corsair AX series units, his marketing people say SeaSonic-built units are popular, and he sees everyone else using SeaSonic as their OEM for the enthusiast segment? Why, he's going to feel mighty tempted to go to SeaSonic as well. You can see this in particular with OCZ, who introduced the PC Power & Cooling Silencer Mk.II line, built by Sirtec. Everyone (including myself) immediately rebelled and said they should have gone with SeaSonic. And so what do we have now? SeaSonic S12D-based Silencer units. I'm afraid of this trend continuing; Give us SeaSonic or else!

A lot of PSU technology originates in the server market, gets filtered down through enthusiast units, and eventually reaches the mainstream segment. You can see this with, for instance, the double forward topology which started penetrating the server market segment around the turn of the century, became common in enthusiast power supplies around 2006, and is now becoming the standard in mainstream PSUs (Corsair CX anyone?). Some day, in some distant geological epoch, it may even penetrate the OEM market, which still insists on single forward and half bridge units for most computers.

The enthusiast PSU market is a testing ground, where companies can experiment with making their existing technologies meet the still high standards of the enthusiast market, while at a lower price than the server market. Once they master that, they can attempt to introduce those same technologies to the mainstream market under even tighter budget restraints. It's a natural progression. But companies don't make the gobs of money off enthusiast PSUs that they do off high-margin server units, or high-volume mainstream units. They're counting on the other two markets to cover the R&D cost of developing these enthusiast power supplies, essentially treating them like loss-leaders to build awareness and test new ideas. Without the enthusiast market, it will be harder for higher efficiency and higher performance designs from the server market to filter down to the mainstream.



While I appreciate the sentiment that SeaSonic would still strive for high quality if they were to become part of an oligopoly, history doesn't bear that out. I mean, let's look at another market, say video games (a market I'm trying to penetrate myself). EA and Ubisoft were founded by developers who believed in the medium as a form or artistic expression and vowed to only make the highest quality products. And now....




It just comes down to this. I'm afraid of losing diversity in the enthusiast power supply market (not the PSU market as a whole). We're down to only a handful of respected manufacturers and I don't want to see that number shrink further as more are starved out by just a couple of giants.



I rambled a bit there, but I hope you can see where my concerns are.
post #64 of 320
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickt1862 View Post

To the SeaSonic Rep: 

Does your company want to sell even more PSU's?  Do what your company already currently does and offers with some countries in regard to your new ("version 2") "X" series PSU's and the 7 year warranty.  Why can't SeaSonic give and or extend the warranty period to all customers who have any "X" series PSU to 7 years instead of the 5 years your company currently gives most of the world.  If Corsair could do this right off the bat with their AX series which is essentially the same PSU I'd say it's not a stretch to say SeaSonic easily can do this as well.

Logistics, mate. Keeping dozens of international RMA offices running is expensive.
Quote:
Almost a repeat (lol!): Do you know how many more people purchase the Corsair AX version which is essentially your PSU because of the 7 year warranty they offer and all pricing being even almost equal and or if they paid a tad more?

That information is probably confidential.
post #65 of 320
This build was my first corsair PSU and im already worried about the wattage jumping up and down for no reason during idle.


Previously I owned 2 OCZ Modxstream 700 and 750 watts and both of those PSUs did a very good job. Before that I owned an Antec Earthwatts 500 and it was a wonderful supply. I think on my next build I will buy an OCZ again.
 
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post #66 of 320
Ive been looking at the a new PSU 850 and overall the seasonic x850 -platinum 860 is hard to beat.1st of all 100% modular-"you need to do some wire management" hide those extra wires - 2nd A 7yr warranty- self explanatory -#3rd platinum rating we all like pretend we are green and yet we fold for days on end or leave our games running while at work. Ive looked around there is nothing else on the market with those 3 things that are important to me other then good CS, many of the other manf/ re-branded PSU company's have horrid CS test it out for yourself E-mail them and ask a couple questions. The cost in question is null if and when something happens and your unable to contact support or 2 week wait to get a RMA. I have been running the Same Xigmatek 650w (CW) PSU for over 5 yrs not 1 issue or problem and would buy again BUT they Do not offer what I am looking for in a PSU. as far as the Seasonic/Corsair thing I kind of look at it like this way.. just because corsair is built by Seasonic don't always mean its the same quality remember Ford made the Pinto at the same time they made the Towncar.
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post #67 of 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScribbyDaGreat View Post

I like it, but the end sentence makes you sound like an end of the world Mayan.

lol, conspiracies.




Here's an analogy. Remember the American car market in the 1950/60s? Now imagine it in the 1980s, right before the Japanese import market really smashed them to pieces. That's the type of situation we might be headed for in the next decade, with consolidation and a nascent oligopoly. Except there won't be any Japanese brands coming out of the blue to compete with the established names, so we'll just be stuck in a cycle of low competition and high prices.

Lol, nascent - we are already there! Your main point above (first post) makes the word "nascent" unnecessary in your analogy! The oligopoly for computer part production and sale already exists. Same production line - different sticker prior to packaging.
   
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post #68 of 320
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD_Freak View Post

Ive been looking at the a new PSU 850 and overall the seasonic x850 -platinum 860 is hard to beat.1st of all 100% modular-"you need to do some wire management" hide those extra wires - 2nd A 7yr warranty- self explanatory -#3rd platinum rating we all like pretend we are green and yet we fold for days on end or leave our games running while at work. Ive looked around there is nothing else on the market with those 3 things that are important to me other then good CS, many of the other manf/ re-branded PSU company's have horrid CS test it out for yourself E-mail them and ask a couple questions. The cost in question is null if and when something happens and your unable to contact support or 2 week wait to get a RMA. I have been running the Same Xigmatek 650w (CW) PSU for over 5 yrs not 1 issue or problem and would buy again BUT they Do not offer what I am looking for in a PSU. as far as the Seasonic/Corsair thing I kind of look at it like this way.. just because corsair is built by Seasonic don't always mean its the same quality remember Ford made the Pinto at the same time they made the Towncar.

The thing is, the stuff about terrible support? Is in many cases false. Antec has excellent customer support. Thermaltake has excellent support. Most other companies are improving their customer support to try to reach the level of Antec and Corsair, and very few of them were as bad as you describe to begin with.

Also, a note on 80PLUS Platinum--efficiency is a bit of a white elephant, you aren't likely to notice the 1-2 percentage point difference between 80PLUS Gold and Platinum. It's a marketing ploy more than anything else. While the 80PLUS program is commendable for leading to a general 5-15% increase in consumer PSU efficiency over the last five years, efficiency is far from the most important aspect of a power supply's performance.
post #69 of 320
The only problem with Seasonic and Corsair is that there's no competition. You get a quality PSU with 5 or 7 years of warranty for a good price.
post #70 of 320
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScribbyDaGreat View Post

Lol, nascent - we are already there! Your main point above (first post) makes the word "nascent" unnecessary in your analogy! The oligopoly for computer part production and sale already exists. Same production line - different sticker prior to packaging.

There are eight major players in the enthusiast PSU manufacturing market at the moment, and another dozen in the mainstream retail PSU market. That's diverse enough, although it could be better. I'm talking about when it gets paired down to 2-4 manufacturers making enthusiast PSUs, with more being forced to the mainstream market.
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