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Sean's SSD Buyers Guide & Information Thread - Page 31

post #301 of 2376
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukaTCE View Post

And what is wrong with it ? i saw on forums ppl having more freeze BSOD with M4 my vertex 3 didn't crashed even once in 2 month (2.15 firmware) LPM regfix fixed mouse freezing on start so i don't understand what is so wrong with this ssd OCZ have even better firmware update tool coz updating in win can fail to update. So marwell is only better for compiling,compressing,rendering ? and sandforce is better for os load time and app lunch ?

This is seriously a joke right?

I've been a Vertex 3 owner since release back last April. I bought the m4 in October because I was tired of Sandforce/OCZ BS.

The firmware update tool for both drives can be run from a usb stick easily. One is not better than the other, that's nonsense.

Crucial m4 bsod - happened at 5200 hours of power on time. Found and corrected in less than month.

Sandforce 2281 bsod - happened randomly. Partially corrected after SIX months.

Yeah, they're comparable alright.
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post #302 of 2376
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

This is seriously a joke right?
I've been a Vertex 3 owner since release back last April. I bought the m4 in October because I was tired of Sandforce/OCZ BS.
The firmware update tool for both drives can be run from a usb stick easily. One is not better than the other, that's nonsense.
Crucial m4 bsod - happened at 5200 hours of power on time. Found and corrected in less than month.
Sandforce 2281 bsod - happened randomly. Partially corrected after SIX months.
Yeah, they're comparable alright.
Yes in april there were no firmare 2.15 this firmware fixed BSOD so how can u say is bad if u tried it before 10 month (then try M4 with old firmware)
U get any freezes with M4 ?
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post #303 of 2376
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukaTCE View Post

Yes in april there were no firmare 2.15 this firmware fixed BSOD so how can u say is bad if u tried it before 10 month (then try M4 with old firmware)
U get any freezes with M4 ?

My m4 has never frozen a single time. The bsod freeze you keep quoting for m4 only happens when the drive's power on hours hit 5200. It's not even an issue worth mentioning.

No kidding 2.15 wasn't around in April. Since you obviously aren't aware of how bad the bsod problem was, here's a refresher.

Vertex 3 - shipped with firmware 2.02 and then updated to 2.06 in May. Then we had 2.08, 2.09, 2.11, 2.13 and finally 2.15 after 6 months. How do I know 2.15 is a partial fix? Because people are still getting bsod with 2.15 and one visit to ocz support confirms it.
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post #304 of 2376
The point though is that unlike OCZ, Crucial had a fix out in under a month and didn't deny the issue.
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post #305 of 2376
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukaTCE View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Webster View Post

SandForce drive and made by OCZ.
And what is wrong with it ? i saw on forums ppl having more freeze BSOD with M4 my vertex 3 didn't crashed even once in 2 month (2.15 firmware) LPM regfix fixed mouse freezing on start so i don't understand what is so wrong with this ssd OCZ have even better firmware update tool coz updating in win can fail to update. So marwell is only better for compiling,compressing,rendering ? and sandforce is better for os load time and app lunch ?

Everything is wrong with that. There are more issues with SandForce drives than other types overall.

What do you mean you see more issues with the M4? I've never had my system freeze due to the drive. I've personally helped dozens of sandforce SSD owners try to fix issues with their drives far more than others with their Samsung, Crucial, or Intel drives in this Hardware & Storage and SSD forum.

Now why are SandForce drives not good imo you ask? Well, look up all the issues people have had with them, look at the issues people still get with their SandForce drive even after the new firmware "fix" which amazingly took so long for then to get in the first place! It took over 6 months for SandForce and other manufacturers to get the "fix." Also, like mcg said people are still having issues even after all the newest firmware updates with the SandForce drives, luckily you are not, but that doesn't mean others will not have issues with the new release of firmware. There are users who still get random freezing, stuttering and shut downs that can't be explained. This includes me b/c I have personally dealt with 11 SandFroce drives with issues even after the newest firmware.

Now look at other manufacturers, it took other manufacturers like Crucial w/ Micron about a month to fix their BSoD issue @5200hrs since it first became noticed. Look at Samsung, they had a issue with their new firmware where the drive would disappear after flashing it, but a few days later they released a new version that fixes that issue.

LOL, the way you have to update your firmware sucks, I hate updating SandForce drives personally. OCZ made it slightly better than the other brands by adding a linux live CD to allow you to update through, but mostly you have to do it through only a Windows OS with other manufacturers, now that sucks for people who have no Windows as their OS such as a Mac or linux now doesn't it?

With the Crucial you just need to download the iso updater to a cd or usb and boot from it, run it, type yes and boot back into any OS you have. You don't need to jump trough hoops to update.

And...the SandForce drives have slower reads and writes with compressed data than other non SandForce drives.

Oh yea and with OCZ if you buy form a non authorized reseller such as on eBay you can not send it in for an RMA if an issue arises. XD

And all that for about the same or more $ than the competitors? LOL

Hmmm, I ca't add the Vertex 3 to my suggested drives list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukaTCE View Post

Yes in april there were no firmare 2.15 this firmware fixed BSOD so how can u say is bad if u tried it before 10 month (then try M4 with old firmware)
U get any freezes with M4 ?

Like I said, I had my M4 on firmware 0001 for a while after I first bought it and I never had a freezing's issue with it. Now I have the 0309 and still haven't had issue. There was one time, but it was due to a bad install disc, it went away after a second reinstall.
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post #306 of 2376
i have to agree with sean on this one. even though i do own a sandforce based ssd, i personally have never experienced the isses he is describing. but they are happening more frequently than any other. i for one, will be going to a marvell based controller for my next upgrade. the corsair performance pro is looking pretty sweet right about now. even the intel SSDs are looking good. the reason why you dont see hardly any problems with those, and they have sandforce controllers, is because intel writes their own firmware for them.
Edited by firestorm1 - 2/14/12 at 9:35am
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post #307 of 2376
I'm running 2 OCZ's here. Never had a freeze up and seems to work perfect so far. But really, there is not much point argueing over different businesses because they all sell products over priced and don't give a hell about us once they have our money in some reguards.
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post #308 of 2376
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyW View Post

I'm running 2 OCZ's here. Never had a freeze up and seems to work perfect so far. But really, there is not much point argueing over different businesses because they all sell products over priced and don't give a hell about us once they have our money in some reguards.

biggrin.gif lol, yep, damn businesses tongue.gif

But a lot of companies do have great CS and actually care a lot about their customers too.
I added some info to the benchmark part of the guide on compressed vs uncompressed data and benchmarks scoring your drives.
Quote:
I like AS SSD the best because:
  1. It shows the alignment info, driver, disk size, disk name, and firmware revision.
  2. It shows scores based on compressed/uncompressible data, thus it stresses harder on some SSDs.
  3. It shows the straight up #'s of read, write performance and doesn't mix them, though it has another bench for that built in.
  4. It gives pretty consistent results.
  5. Simple to use with no guess work on options or the ability to mis-compare drives as easily as other benches.

Others are reliable as well, but test with different % of compressed and uncompressed data. Some stress reads more than writes, others do the opposite. You just need to know what each does so you can compare different drives properly.

So most people understand Random Data and why 4k / 8k Random results are important to choosing your SSD? If you do not, please go back and read that section for both of our sakes, and the sake of my personal sanity. To keep it in short summary though, 4k & 8k Random Reads & Writes directly represent the most basic & common functions of your Operating System, and thus results will give you the best idea of your "slowest" moments in day to day operations.

Now, at the same time, compressed data is very important for a similar regard; as it represents in results, what your SSD will be able to achieve when it's not able to compress data down for more compact storage and better read/write times. For those of you that don't know, the (current) most popular controller out there (Sandforce 2200 series) is infamous (in a good way) for compressing data on the fly when it's written to the drive so that it can thus read the data in the future, at a more rapid rate. Thus, with compressed data (like the small bits of data which make up many components of your OS) you get incredibly quick results.

Now, let's have a small thought experiment for demonstration purposes. When you have a compressed piece of data, the SSD has less to read so it's reading the same amount of information at a quicker pace. On the flipside, if that same data was never compressed to begin with, the SSD will read it at a slower rate. Now, you might ask "what data cannot be compressed" and that is your random data. White Noise is an easy example of data that is completely random and cannot be compressed. As compression relies on finding patterns to map paths to. Thus, large files and certain components do not share enough commonality or have enough patterns to be compressed and thus the SSD will take a longer time to read it.
A simple "experiment" that you can do to show this compression in action is to take a program like 7Zip and compress down 50 copies of the same picture into an archive and then compress down 50 random pictures of the same size into another archive. The 50 copies should be smaller since they should have matching data.

Furthermore, AS SSD shows the Corsair Force 3 maxing @ ~200MB/s reads and depending on size, we will say 120 GB for this example, 100 MB/s writes on SATA 3, but in ATTO disk bench the Force 3 gets over 500MB/s reads/writes! That is due to the different testing methods. ATTO uses fully uncompressed data while AS SSD as you know uses fully compressed data to test with. First for SandForce drives compressed data is a little harder to process vs uncompressed due to the way the controller operates, it compresses data before being put onto the NAND cells. And the thing with compressed data and why I like seeing tests with it is that a lot of your OS files and user files are compressed to a certain degree. This means that overall compressed data is a better way to measure out how one drive will compare to one another in use in a system. But the main reason the Force 3 will get such low scores vs the Crucail M4 and Corsair GT even though they are marketed at the same speeds is the asynchronous NAND instead of synchronous NAND. And when you take that certain types of NAND take to different types of files differently then you want to see what the worst/best case scenario is with the benchmarks. And that is what AS SSD gives me, a view to how a drive will really operate in the hardest data use. But this is simply for a brief period of time a few minutes at most, remember that.

There is also to consider the length of which the drive is being benched. Since SSDs have NAND cells they need to be constantly flushed to keep up performance after extended periods of writes. The larger the storage area the more abuse (writes) the drive can take basically until it runs out of fresh NAND to write too. Then when that happens then you see the sustained performance over time of writes in worse case scenario. That will also help you to understand what drives are better than others for certain tasks.

But with that said, out of all the current gen SSDs, the actual consumer user usage will almost never ever hit that worse case state unless say you are constantly writing a ton of movie files all day to it nonstop so garbage collection can't take place. And it is extremely hard to even notice the difference b/c they all have similar access times and the 4K reads. And consumers rarely will be able to max out the drive's speeds in use.

Ummm, I kinda said a lot there of topic a tiny bit, but I also left some out and didn't explain everything. I hope it helps you understand from what I understand. If you have any more questions just ask an I'll see if I can explain or answer. thumb.gif
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post #309 of 2376
Purchased the Crucial 128 GB m4 today for my laptop. Hopefully this one doesn't die like my OCZ summit tongue.gif
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post #310 of 2376
does this look normal?342
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Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Hard Drives & Storage › SSD › Sean's SSD Buyers Guide & Information Thread