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[Escapist] StarCraft 2 Threatens to Zerg Rush Chess For Science - Page 9

post #81 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploppytheman View Post

Im not starcraft is just that good. Ive played a lot of RTS and its my favorite genre of game. I played a little company of heroes once but I thought it was boring, I didnt even know it was an RTS at the time.
de/acceleration, rate of fire, aiming of spells, are all in starcraft as well and are involved in stutter step micro and kiting and just general micro. Phoenix vs muta is a good example as mutas have great acceleration and are very agile with a slower attack rate. Phoenix attack quite a bit faster and have more speed but less control over acceleration. So theoretically a phoenix should never get hit by a muta.
Damage modifiers have been in RTS forever including in SC1. Red Alert its obvious infantry take less damage from tanks, and do less damage, etc. In Starcraft there were types of attacks, concussive, normal and explosive and there were small medium and large units which took different damage respectively. Just because it didnt say +20 to armored doesnt meant there werent damage systems. Now the damage system is just +damage to X instead of less damage to Y with no indication on the unit. Combine that with armor and spell effects and you have complexity.
Normal weapons are equally effective against all types of units.
Concussion/Plasma weapons do 50% damage against Medium units and 25% against Large units.
Explosive weapons do 50% damage against Small units and 75% against Medium units.
http://classic.battle.net/scc/GS/damage.shtml
I dont see how u can say CoH has more differences as its allies vs axis right? Most units do pretty much the same role with different stats. In starcraft you got masses of bugs, future humans, and super advanced aliens with shields and lazers. Sure in SC2 there is more homogenization especially with maruader, roach, and stalker and viking corruptor but generally the races are extremely different and in their economy and spells are completely unique.
I dont know what you mean by playing your cards right. Starcraft is a game of thousands of actions where a single misclick can end the game on one extreme. For APM sure it needs to be high because speed is a skillset in starcraft. The more moves in a game usually lead to the better player winning which is extremely important.
I didnt even know CoH was played competitively until you posted this either. And I even watched a WCG game but didnt care for it. There is no other RTS that can really stand up to SC2. Stacraft is getting huge and has history, community, and a huge amount of content behind it besides being a great game.

LOL you just proved you are a fanboy, in your previous post and in this one.

If I dont think SC2 is the new chess I also believed the world was flat? I was never knocking off the game I was knocking of people like you who *** to the game nonstop.

I have played both COH and SC2 extensively, I think both were good games and I didnt get far up the ladder on either and recognize the obvious skill involved for both of them. You on the other hand only play one game, starcraft and knock off other games you haven't even played or barely played when they require alot of skill as well. You said I would cry if I saw my losses? Not so much because its a game to me, apparently to you its a fleshlight. You have barely even played coh and say the game doesnt require skill, when a top level player could destroy you easily. Personally I liked COH better, because it was something fresh, in the days of rts games which was build base, make units.
Edited by sausageson - 12/11/11 at 8:53am
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post #82 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sainesk View Post

Last time I checked I couldn't micro individual units in CoH apart from a few things like tanks.
Get one of your pros to beat the marine split challenge custom game, if he/she is really that superior in micro, should be easy for them, then maybe we'll take your post seriously.

Yes you do. Just because you are in a squad environment for infantry, you are able to position your infantry individually. Likewise, if you aren't skilled enough to know how to place individual units while in a squad environment, it shows your lack of skill in the game. Heck, they teach you how to do it in the training missions. Just to through in more complexity of the game, you account for physics, sight ratios/camo sights, road path finding, turret rotation speeds, retreat bonuses, and even the psychology of your troops (i.e. pinning/suppression and their related bonuses). Players on CoH also radically shape the map. You can't shape the map on SC2, neither SC1.

Fanboys would be fanboys. The arguments they have stated for complexity revolves in nearly all RTS games, CoH just builds on it and breaks the rules. Oh well...clouded judges before they reach high level play (which I'm an old SC1 vet and SC2 player) and have counted well over thousands of thousands of hours to RTS games of all styles. Lol, if you want to use that as an argument, then I'd just use it too. Been playing competitive RTS for 4 years, and gaming RTS since I was 8 years old.

Simply put, CoH is more micro driven... starcraft mixes the two concepts very well... CnC is more macro driven (on the higher archy of macro-micro ratios). Micro requires more thought on the micro scale, macro is more APM/macroly driven, resource prediction, rock-paper-scissors concepts, etc. Just like the sciences, macro is a lot more simple then micro but both requires dramatically different concepts that only intertwine the other characteristics of the other.

Allies versus axis really shows your lack of understanding of the game and complexity of the factions and how much they differ. How can you comment on a game on which of competitive elements when you haven't actually played the game to the pro tournament levels?

I'm a huge CnC fan at heart, but I'll easily comment on its lack of complexity any time. It just shows you how much I actually understand the game and not allow fanboy comments to cloud my judgement.
Edited by Domino - 12/11/11 at 9:21am
post #83 of 115
If people read even the OP, they would see that researchers are not trying to replace chess...

First of all, a SINGLE researcher is branching out to study SC2 (or at least, the article mentions a singular study). This is far from a switch in scientific studying methodology.

Second of all, even the article admits that Chess is a completely different game than Starcraft. I hate to quote articles, because most of the time they are sensationalist and don't actually understand the study, but this point is simple enough:
Quote:
Originally Posted by article 
chess has served as a sort of focal point for cognitive scientists attempting to determine, among other things, why human brains are so good when focused on individual tasks and so bad when their attention is divided

Since Starcraft is being brought in as a way of studying how humans are actually quite capable of extreme multi-tasking, this may become a new branch of study, but far from "replacing" chess, because they are different. They may be compared later down the road, but that doesn't mean one is better than the other.

Seriously people, 9 pages of debate over terminology and opinions. Get the basics down first before going for each other's throats.
 
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post #84 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by b3machi7ke View Post

does anyone read articles anymore or just randomly guess what the article is about based upon the title?!?! doh.gif
 



Most people just read the thread title. Many other threads have proved this. Reading articles and actually understanding what the topic is about is beyond the average user it seems.

 

 

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post #85 of 115
I love how this thread went from scientist studying the brain under extreme time pressured multitasking situations to SC elitism.

SC will in no way ever replace Chess or Go as the defacto "game of kings". Those 2 games, more so Go are extremely complex and take many many years to even be remotely good at them.

That said, i'd choose AOE2 and Rise of Nations over SC2 any day. RON especially is a macro nightmare...
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post #86 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Yes you do. Just because you are in a squad environment for infantry, you are able to position your infantry individually. Likewise, if you aren't skilled enough to know how to place individual units while in a squad environment, it shows your lack of skill in the game. Heck, they teach you how to do it in the training missions. Just to through in more complexity of the game, you account for physics, sight ratios/camo sights, road path finding, turret rotation speeds, retreat bonuses, and even the psychology of your troops (i.e. pinning/suppression and their related bonuses). Players on CoH also radically shape the map. You can't shape the map on SC2, neither SC1.
Fanboys would be fanboys. The arguments they have stated for complexity revolves in nearly all RTS games, CoH just builds on it and breaks the rules. Oh well...clouded judges before they reach high level play (which I'm an old SC1 vet and SC2 player) and have counted well over thousands of thousands of hours to RTS games of all styles. Lol, if you want to use that as an argument, then I'd just use it too. Been playing competitive RTS for 4 years, and gaming RTS since I was 8 years old.
Simply put, CoH is more micro driven... starcraft mixes the two concepts very well... CnC is more macro driven (on the higher archy of macro-micro ratios). Micro requires more thought on the micro scale, macro is more APM/macroly driven, resource prediction, rock-paper-scissors concepts, etc. Just like the sciences, macro is a lot more simple then micro but both requires dramatically different concepts that only intertwine the other characteristics of the other.
Allies versus axis really shows your lack of understanding of the game and complexity of the factions and how much they differ. How can you comment on a game on which of competitive elements when you haven't actually played the game to the pro tournament levels?
I'm a huge CnC fan at heart, but I'll easily comment on its lack of complexity any time. It just shows you how much I actually understand the game and not allow fanboy comments to cloud my judgement.

Sorry according to the SC elitists over here you cannot comment on SC unless you reach korean levels of play, while they can state their opinions on other RTS games as facts because they played it for a few hours and sucked at it.
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post #87 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riou View Post

Chess is turn based. SC2 is real time.
Why are they compared?
Someone else has probably pointed this out, but have you ever played Blitz chess?

It's turn-based, but it's not slow at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHrg8Lib0WU
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post #88 of 115
 
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post #89 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Yes you do. Just because you are in a squad environment for infantry, you are able to position your infantry individually. Likewise, if you aren't skilled enough to know how to place individual units while in a squad environment, it shows your lack of skill in the game. Heck, they teach you how to do it in the training missions. Just to through in more complexity of the game, you account for physics, sight ratios/camo sights, road path finding, turret rotation speeds, retreat bonuses, and even the psychology of your troops (i.e. pinning/suppression and their related bonuses). Players on CoH also radically shape the map. You can't shape the map on SC2, neither SC1.
Fanboys would be fanboys. The arguments they have stated for complexity revolves in nearly all RTS games, CoH just builds on it and breaks the rules. Oh well...clouded judges before they reach high level play (which I'm an old SC1 vet and SC2 player) and have counted well over thousands of thousands of hours to RTS games of all styles. Lol, if you want to use that as an argument, then I'd just use it too. Been playing competitive RTS for 4 years, and gaming RTS since I was 8 years old.
Simply put, CoH is more micro driven... starcraft mixes the two concepts very well... CnC is more macro driven (on the higher archy of macro-micro ratios). Micro requires more thought on the micro scale, macro is more APM/macroly driven, resource prediction, rock-paper-scissors concepts, etc. Just like the sciences, macro is a lot more simple then micro but both requires dramatically different concepts that only intertwine the other characteristics of the other.
Allies versus axis really shows your lack of understanding of the game and complexity of the factions and how much they differ. How can you comment on a game on which of competitive elements when you haven't actually played the game to the pro tournament levels?
I'm a huge CnC fan at heart, but I'll easily comment on its lack of complexity any time. It just shows you how much I actually understand the game and not allow fanboy comments to cloud my judgement.

Sorry according to the SC elitists over here you cannot comment on SC unless you reach korean levels of play, while they can state their opinions on other RTS games as facts because they played it for a few hours and sucked at it.

You don't need to be good to understand starcraft, you can understand the game without being able to play it, but lots of people post garbage because they are completely ignorant of the game. There is a reason why starcraft is a sport in Korea and sc2 is a sport worldwide where there is no other RTS like that. You know how big sc2 is? I haven't played every single RTS ever but I've played them for 14 years and there is nothing like starcraft.

Sorry but your wrong. Don't be mad.
post #90 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploppytheman View Post

You don't need to be good to understand starcraft, you can understand the game without being able to play it, but lots of people post garbage because they are completely ignorant of the game. There is a reason why starcraft is a sport in Korea and sc2 is a sport worldwide where there is no other RTS like that. You know how big sc2 is? I haven't played every single RTS ever but I've played them for 14 years and there is nothing like starcraft.

You don't know the history of your favorite RTS that well. It became a cultural phenomenon as the poor communities of Korea and neighboring countries were able to play a computer game that was not very demanding. Due to its low system requirements, it was easy to purchase needed hardware to play the game. Given the large poor population and population density, it only gain in popularity quickly. Eventually it became a national sport, not because it was the best RTS, but it was popular to the poor communities that couldn't afford much (which just happened to be the majority of the population).

I'm not saying any offense to the poor communities of Asia, I'm just pointing out facts. Traditions stick and that's why SC2 took off.

Just looking out for you, but, learn your stuff. At least I went easy on ya.
Quote:
Sorry but your wrong. Don't be mad.

Why would you even say that? You don't have any supporting arguments and you just resort to, "No, you're wrong". Then you try some sort of ... what. Mad? Why would I be mad? Are you upset that your favorite game is not the most complex RTS on the planet? Are you that attached to a game that it effects you like this?

Dude...seriously?
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