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[Sponsored]Project Thief - COMPLETED 11/13/2014 - 2 CPUs, 8 GPUs, 4 Loops, 6 Pumps, 50+ Fans, 2TB SSD - Page 376

post #3751 of 3824
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Vacation time - back in a week and then it will be the finishing!

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post #3752 of 3824
So Stren, would you say that after this experience that you would recommend against a TX-10D and the concept of multiple builds in one?

I just ordered a TH10-A and am kind of second guessing, thinking that I'm eventually gonna want to get whatever the next platform is, at which point my existing build (still brand new x99 5960x) will still be very strong so I'd have two nice computers, and it would be nice to be able to simply move it to the other side, or just use the other side for testing various components.

Plus as big as the TH10 is, the extra space for radiators would have made my existing build a little easier.

Oh well, what's done is done, I'm just having doubts, but if I want a 2nd build later in its own box, TH10A * 2 = ~$1600 vs ~$1100 for one TX10D. Plus I think the space is better utilized w/ 2 builds than having half a build mostly just housing the PSU and cables like the TH10.

I also thought I was gonna need all custom cables to reach in the TX10 which would have been a pain but upon having a reference in the TH10, I can see that wouldn't actually have been much of a problem.

Although it's funny because what we like about caselabs is the modularity, but then jamming multiple computers in one box is the opposite of modularity. Also in terms of the way that engineers usually think about redundancy and backups and no single point of failure, you'd want your components separate, so like if a pipe leaked it wouldn't explore both your computers at once. I also thought having the power be on the same outlet could be a problem, but given that only one of my builds would be loaded up with GPUs, the circuit actually probably could have handled it.

Still, for my purposes, I think a TX10 would have worked well, using the upper and lower chambers for rads for the main build, and the second one for a smaller, low-maintanence one.

But it was hard to make that decision when placing my order having never seen a caselabs close up. You can read the measurements but it's hard to envision.
post #3753 of 3824
Not Stren here but be careful- you are one step away from ordering a TX10-D and two steps away from pedestal(s), extended top and madness.
post #3754 of 3824
Already have the TH10A in my living room so that will be a lot of powder black aluminum. Maybe I will put the TH on top of the TX heh.
post #3755 of 3824
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeluke View Post

So Stren, would you say that after this experience that you would recommend against a TX-10D and the concept of multiple builds in one?

I just ordered a TH10-A and am kind of second guessing, thinking that I'm eventually gonna want to get whatever the next platform is, at which point my existing build (still brand new x99 5960x) will still be very strong so I'd have two nice computers, and it would be nice to be able to simply move it to the other side, or just use the other side for testing various components.

Plus as big as the TH10 is, the extra space for radiators would have made my existing build a little easier.

Oh well, what's done is done, I'm just having doubts, but if I want a 2nd build later in its own box, TH10A * 2 = ~$1600 vs ~$1100 for one TX10D. Plus I think the space is better utilized w/ 2 builds than having half a build mostly just housing the PSU and cables like the TH10.

I also thought I was gonna need all custom cables to reach in the TX10 which would have been a pain but upon having a reference in the TH10, I can see that wouldn't actually have been much of a problem.

Although it's funny because what we like about caselabs is the modularity, but then jamming multiple computers in one box is the opposite of modularity. Also in terms of the way that engineers usually think about redundancy and backups and no single point of failure, you'd want your components separate, so like if a pipe leaked it wouldn't explore both your computers at once. I also thought having the power be on the same outlet could be a problem, but given that only one of my builds would be loaded up with GPUs, the circuit actually probably could have handled it.

Still, for my purposes, I think a TX10 would have worked well, using the upper and lower chambers for rads for the main build, and the second one for a smaller, low-maintanence one.

But it was hard to make that decision when placing my order having never seen a caselabs close up. You can read the measurements but it's hard to envision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post

Not Stren here but be careful- you are one step away from ordering a TX10-D and two steps away from pedestal(s), extended top and madness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeluke View Post

Already have the TH10A in my living room so that will be a lot of powder black aluminum. Maybe I will put the TH on top of the TX heh.

Yeah honestly I don't think the TX10-D is a good idea, I discourage anyone from it because two large rigs in one case is painful. Yes you save a bit of money versus two big cases, but you have to ask the questions

- how much are you saving vs the entire project budget where the watercooling components alone will be thousands.
- do you really need two large builds in one case? Most people need one big and one smaller - for example I could have done a mATX workstation in an SM5/S5 and an ATX gaming rig in a SMA8 or S8 + Ped
- how often do you do maintenance? Can you afford to take both rigs down at the same time?

The TX10-V is different though, if you want a super large case for one rig then it's awesome for that, I do think even for that need though a TH10A or STH10 is a better fit and cheaper. The TX10 is realistically too much IMO for almost anyone. I can't imagine someone who actually needs it (though I know there are plenty who want one). The downsides to such a large build such as being able to move it or carry it vs the actual performance benefits of slightly larger radiators make it not worth it.

Bear in mind that to carry this project upstairs, I'll need two people *and* to drain most of the loops *and* pull a bunch of the radiators (thank goodness for QDCs). I love CL and I love that they built something so ridiculous, but if I were to start over I would absolutely not do this lol. This may make me unamerican - but sometimes there is such a thing as "too big".
     
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post #3756 of 3824
What he said. It makes sense for me since the two builds are for two people with the case in between the two desks. But otherwise I'm all for one case per build myself.

Also- movers.
post #3757 of 3824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post

What he said. It makes sense for me since the two builds are for two people with the case in between the two desks. But otherwise I'm all for one case per build myself.

Also- movers.

But you can do that with two cases anyway - the 2x STH10s back to back is 98% the same as a TX10 but with more flexibility and it's easier to work with. Yes it can work for you now, but wait til you move and the same setup doesn't work anymore. That's why I like the merlin range so much for being reversible.

And yes I've used movers before, when it was lighter, and they struggled so much and ended up denting a panel because I didn't drain it smile.gif Geggeg got a ridiculous deal on his, so I understand, but I wouldn't pay full price for a TX10 for sure. I'm not trying to be negative about CL btw, I love CL, and I love the cases, but I think it's easy for people to get carried away and think the TX10 is the best case because it's the biggest, and I wouldn't agree with that biggrin.gif If you know it will work the best for you then go for it, but I think for most users it won't.
     
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post #3758 of 3824
I think if you want two fully water cooled builds then that is too complicated to have in one case, and that when you have an extended top or pedestal the TX would definitely be out of hand.

But looking at my TH, and imagining if it was a TX with no pedestal, it feels like it would be only slightly different in size: maybe four inches wider and deeper, and eight inches higher. So moving that should be no problem. In return instead of just a power supply and cords on one side, you have a whole other motherboard, and you have more flex-bays which are, naturally, more flexible than the HDD mounts.

The challenge with water cooling is you need a lot of surface area but you don't actually need all the internal room, so I can see how filling the space with a second motherboard makes sense--*as long as* that second build isn't equally elaborate with a whole bunch of dependencies.

For my purposes, I could see it working: One side would have all the water cooling, including a 140.9 Mo.ra (easier to hook up than 3-4 rads in the TH), so you're using the larger footprint of a double case to provide easier water-cooling for one.

Additionally, I'd ideally run a Windows machine with tons of GPUs but few HDDs, and then a Linux machine with tons of HDDs but no GPUs. So each is lopsided in a way that requires some of a big case but not all of one. So it could kind of balance out in a TX.

The 2nd side would need to be simple, though. It could even just be sort of a staging area allowing me to mess around with little computer parts, but often unused. Being right next to each other makes it easy to switch the HDMI cables if I wanted to use the 2nd build's desktop instead of SSHing in, and to connect a crossover ethernet cable.

Then again, like you said, to work on the watercooled build you'd have to take the NAS offline, and if some crazy disaster happened it'd take out both builds. So I guess on balance I'd be better off accommodating 10+ HDDs for a NAS in a second smaller Caselabs case, which should be doable and for not much more money at all than a TX10. I'm not inclined to buy a RAID card so it's not like it would be 20 drives anyway.

The background on this is I bought a Harbinger Red Cross desk a while back and immediately realized it was the opposite of modular, made it impossible to do one of the coolest things about computers--how everything is standardized and plug-and-play and you can just slap in new parts--and how it's not cool to have a computer that would be impossible to move to a different house when I move. So I sold it on craigslist. So I totally know what you're saying and don't want to be saddled with some albatross that is a ridiculous burden in later years if my priorities change.

(Additionally, the desk would have been real expensive because you needed crazy workarounds for everything like longer cables, and it made simple tasks a pain.)

I was just imagining the TX being so unwieldy before I got the TH, but after seeing the TH in person and seeing how it's just a few extra inches, it doesn't seem that way. I think my impression was shaped by seeing you all's pictures with the pedestals. Then again I still have never seen a TX in person so if you guys are telling me that even without the pedestal, it's unwieldy and overly complicated, then I take your word for it.

In fact that's what I wanted to hear because it keeps me from second-guessing my purchase, which I can't do anything about anyway (and by no means am I unhappy with the TH!).

As close in size as the non-pedestaled TX seems to be to the TH, I definitely see how having multiple more reasonable-sized builds is easier, you can sell them individually, put them in different rooms, etc.
post #3759 of 3824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeluke View Post

I think if you want two fully water cooled builds then that is too complicated to have in one case, and that when you have an extended top or pedestal the TX would definitely be out of hand.

But looking at my TH, and imagining if it was a TX with no pedestal, it feels like it would be only slightly different in size: maybe four inches wider and deeper, and eight inches higher. So moving that should be no problem. In return instead of just a power supply and cords on one side, you have a whole other motherboard, and you have more flex-bays which are, naturally, more flexible than the HDD mounts.

The challenge with water cooling is you need a lot of surface area but you don't actually need all the internal room, so I can see how filling the space with a second motherboard makes sense--*as long as* that second build isn't equally elaborate with a whole bunch of dependencies.

For my purposes, I could see it working: One side would have all the water cooling, including a 140.9 Mo.ra (easier to hook up than 3-4 rads in the TH), so you're using the larger footprint of a double case to provide easier water-cooling for one.

Additionally, I'd ideally run a Windows machine with tons of GPUs but few HDDs, and then a Linux machine with tons of HDDs but no GPUs. So each is lopsided in a way that requires some of a big case but not all of one. So it could kind of balance out in a TX.

The 2nd side would need to be simple, though. It could even just be sort of a staging area allowing me to mess around with little computer parts, but often unused. Being right next to each other makes it easy to switch the HDMI cables if I wanted to use the 2nd build's desktop instead of SSHing in, and to connect a crossover ethernet cable.

Then again, like you said, to work on the watercooled build you'd have to take the NAS offline, and if some crazy disaster happened it'd take out both builds. So I guess on balance I'd be better off accommodating 10+ HDDs for a NAS in a second smaller Caselabs case, which should be doable and for not much more money at all than a TX10. I'm not inclined to buy a RAID card so it's not like it would be 20 drives anyway.

The background on this is I bought a Harbinger Red Cross desk a while back and immediately realized it was the opposite of modular, made it impossible to do one of the coolest things about computers--how everything is standardized and plug-and-play and you can just slap in new parts--and how it's not cool to have a computer that would be impossible to move to a different house when I move. So I sold it on craigslist. So I totally know what you're saying and don't want to be saddled with some albatross that is a ridiculous burden in later years if my priorities change.

(Additionally, the desk would have been real expensive because you needed crazy workarounds for everything like longer cables, and it made simple tasks a pain.)

I was just imagining the TX being so unwieldy before I got the TH, but after seeing the TH in person and seeing how it's just a few extra inches, it doesn't seem that way. I think my impression was shaped by seeing you all's pictures with the pedestals. Then again I still have never seen a TX in person so if you guys are telling me that even without the pedestal, it's unwieldy and overly complicated, then I take your word for it.

In fact that's what I wanted to hear because it keeps me from second-guessing my purchase, which I can't do anything about anyway (and by no means am I unhappy with the TH!).

As close in size as the non-pedestaled TX seems to be to the TH, I definitely see how having multiple more reasonable-sized builds is easier, you can sell them individually, put them in different rooms, etc.

Yeah - I haven;t seen a TH10 in person recently, but the few inches here and there make a big difference to the size. The TX10 is a surprising monster.

600x330px-LL-dd8a8aa2_DSC_2158.jpeg

#2 vs #4 in that shot but bear in mind perspective makes the TX10 seem smaller relatively than it is


Size: 15"W x 25"H x 26"D

vs

Size: 20.63"W x 36.25"H x 30.38"D

9750 cubic inches vs 22720 cubic inches

Volume is over 2.3x as much
Edited by stren - 10/19/14 at 4:40pm
     
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post #3760 of 3824
Thanks for the detailed response, stren, that is very helpful! Crazy how that math works--I wouldn't have imagined that the extra inches more than double the volume, but that really puts it in perspective. I don't think I would need 2.3 the size of the TH10s--I really just want my TH10 plus a little board controlling a bunch of drives.

And like you said, if you like computers enough to be getting these CL cases, you're probably spending so much on parts that the difference between a TX and two slightly smaller CL cases, which can sit side by side if one wants, is nonexistent or at least not meaningful enough to incur the downsides.

(Though my house is big enough that a unnecessarily large object for the heck of it isn't a drawback in itself per se, and when I was placing my order, I did figure that the cost of one 140.9 Mo.ra and attendant fans was cheaper than multiple 120.4 rads, fans and fittings. But that could be canceled out by other costs necessitated by the extra-large case.)

I learned that with my experience with the Harbinger Cross desk--it's ridiculous, for example, your i/o backplate is inside the desk, so you can't even plug in USBs, unless you want to get 10 USB extensions leading to a bundle outside the case or something! Some of these over-the-top things (not CL cases, in my experience) only make it harder to do simple things.

I guess when you create a product designed to be ridiculously extreme, one outcome is that you sometimes realize, well there's a reason most people don't do it that way!

While I'm off-topic, if no one minds, what's the deal with the CL HDD cages? It seems like you generally have to remove the whole cage to add or remove a drive (assuming you can't reach both sides), am I right? In retrospect I might have bought some $60 3-drive hot swap bays instead of the rudimentary 4-HDD cages they have. It's the only downside I can think of to my CL (and if you have a case that has all flex-bays instead of, like mine, a dedicated row for their HDDs, it's even easier to go with another vendor's 5.25-bay solution). That adherance to standards that enables computers to stay modular and avoid proprietary lock-in is very important, and CL generally does that well, unlike the Harbinger.

Sorry for rambling, I'm just killing time while I run my water loop to check for leaks before turning on the computer (in 24 hours or so). It's my first time doing customer water cooling--TH10A, 3 x 120.4 rads, 3 GTX 780s and a 5960x under water. One D5 pump and a 250ml res, 16 Corsair performance edition SP-120s. Sure hope I don't fry all those parts!
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