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[Official] Samsung SSD750/830/840/850 Owners Club - Page 511

post #5101 of 5742
Think your drive is using its cache and system ram to give you them readings, not really the ssd at all until it flushs, by then the test is over your ssd is still flushing and the test is a cache test not testing the true read and write speed, turn off rapid, and in drive properties in device manager turn caching off and you'll get a near to true speed. Then turn them back on, at the end of the day all these technologies come together and give us what we need, speed when its due, and get the computer gets a bit of idle it will catch with you.. You just see great performance
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post #5102 of 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhuey5 View Post


looks like you have samsung RAPID mode on

mine, 850 EVO

SR=5111 SW=4339
RR=150457 RW=99333

so it looks like we're similar performance
yeah keep lying to yourself....that's your RAM speed not your SSD rolleyes.gif
post #5103 of 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXimus666 View Post

yeah keep lying to yourself....that's your RAM speed not your SSD rolleyes.gif

i wasn't lying since i said RAPID mode was on

apples to apples for his fyi comparison

boing your eyeballs fall on the floor
post #5104 of 5742

Some say that having RAPID mode enabled is a good thing because it can prevent the fragmentation of the data on the SSD by writing it to the SSD in a more linear fashion. It may even help reduce the amount of writes to the SSD by maximizing every write cycle and thus reducing wear on the SSD.


Edited by trparky - 5/11/15 at 7:25am
post #5105 of 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by trparky View Post

Some say that having RAPID mode enabled is a good thing because it can prevent the fragmentation of the data on the SSD by writing it to the SSD in a more linear fashion. It may even help reduce the amount of writes to the SSD by maximizing every write cycle and thus reducing wear on the SSD.

No
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhuey5 View Post

i wasn't lying since i said RAPID mode was on

apples to apples for his fyi comparison

boing your eyeballs fall on the floor

If you turn on CRAPID mode, you are not benchmarking your SSD anymore, you are benchmarking your RAM.

Translate that intro real world performance and it means absolutely nothing.

For example, test this.....

Copy a huge 10GB + video file or whatever large file you want from your C: partition to another partition on another disk......

you will notice that the Windows file copy progress finishes insanely fast.....the moment it finishes the copy, I want you to restart your system

then check that file you copied, it would be corrupt, reason is, yes the file copy progress finished fast, but it didn't finish really, all it was doing is copying the file from your SSD to the RAM Cache and not the actual 2nd SSD or HDD you were intending to copy to, then after it goes to your RAM Cache using CRAPID, it is supposed to copy from the RAM Cache onto the actual disk in the background which didn't happen in this test I did since I restart immediately after the fake file transfer progress was finished.

so it's just cheating + placebo effect

And after you read this, you will never enable RAPID again.....it will actually make your performance worse not better

A Closer look at the crappy CRAPID
post #5106 of 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXimus666 View Post

Copy a huge 10GB + video file or whatever large file you want from your C: partition to another partition on another disk......

you will notice that the Windows file copy progress finishes insanely fast.....the moment it finishes the copy, I want you to restart your system

then check that file you copied, it would be corrupt, reason is, yes the file copy progress finished fast, but it didn't finish really, all it was doing is copying the file from your SSD to the RAM Cache and not the actual 2nd SSD or HDD you were intending to copy to, then after it goes to your RAM Cache using CRAPID, it is supposed to copy from the RAM Cache onto the actual disk in the background which didn't happen in this test I did since I restart immediately after the fake file transfer progress was finished.

I don't understand how that scenario would actually happen because theoretically speaking that would also happen with traditional HDDs, hell, that would happen with traditional HDDs even worse than with SSDs. Why?

 

Imagine this scenario. You're copying a file to an HDD (not SDD), during the write process Windows is caching data in the Windows Write Cache as that data is being streamed to the HDD and in the case of an HDD which is even slower than an SSD with write speeds (hell, HDDs are slower in every way). So, as part of the Windows shutdown process, at least a proper shutdown not a "let's pull the power cord on the back of the machine" shutdown, Windows waits until the Windows write cache is fully flushed to the disk before the shutdown of the OS is complete.

 

Also, if we refer to this report... http://techreport.com/review/26701/samsung-850-pro-solid-state-drive-reviewed/2

 

Quote:
Caching writes in volatile DRAM is risky, but RAPID mode moves those writes to the SSD whenever the Windows write cache is flushed, so the chance of data loss should be relatively low. The cache's contents are written to the drive when Windows shuts down, and they're loaded back into RAM when the OS boots up. There's no need to re-train the system after a reboot.

That right there tells me that RAPID mode follows the same rules that the Windows Write Cache abides by so theoretically data loss should never happen if you shut down your machine properly and allow the write cache to be flushed to the disk.


Edited by trparky - 5/11/15 at 7:51am
post #5107 of 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by trparky View Post

I don't understand how that scenario would actually happen because theoretically speaking that would also happen with traditional HDDs, hell, that would happen with traditional HDDs even worse than with SSDs. Why?

Imagine this scenario. You're copying a file to an HDD (not SDD), during the write process Windows is caching data in the Windows Write Cache as that data is being streamed to the HDD and in the case of an HDD which is even slower than an SSD with write speeds (hell, HDDs are slower in every way). So, as part of the Windows shutdown process, at least a proper shutdown not a "let's pull the power cord on the back of the machine" shutdown, Windows waits until the Windows write cache is fully flushed to the disk before the shutdown of the OS is complete.

Also, if we refer to this report... http://techreport.com/review/26701/samsung-850-pro-solid-state-drive-reviewed/2

That right there tells me that RAPID mode follows the same rules that the Windows Write Cache abides by so theoretically data loss should never happen if you shut down your machine properly and allow the write cache to be flushed to the disk.

He keeps referring to a review of RAPID mode of when it first debuted in the end of 2013.

This is a more recent review of the newer version of RAPID mode, of which there's been updates since that review he keeps referencing (I think they are currently on version 2.1 of RAPID?): http://www.thessdreview.com/software-2/samsung-magician-4-5-rapid-mode-2-1-testing/

Final thoughts from that review:
Quote:
Our final testing with PCMark 8 gave us some better insight on how RAPID can improve a system’s performance. Average latency was cut in half and the total latency was cut down by more than that. The average bandwidth results proved something a bit different at first, steady state performance showed to be lower, but when in the recovery phase, average bandwidth shot up to speeds nearly triple to that of the system with RAPID disabled. Based upon our results, we can tell that RAPID actually does work and it really can significantly speed up real world performance.
So in all, RAPID does indeed increase a system’s performance. In day to day usage start up and opening application times will not be affected, however, when it comes to actually working on projects, RAPID will help to speed things up.

Edited by Palorim12 - 5/11/15 at 8:05am
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post #5108 of 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by trparky View Post

I don't understand how that scenario would actually happen because theoretically speaking that would also happen with traditional HDDs, hell, that would happen with traditional HDDs even worse than with SSDs. Why?

Imagine this scenario. You're copying a file to an HDD (not SDD), during the write process Windows is caching data in the Windows Write Cache as that data is being streamed to the HDD and in the case of an HDD which is even slower than an SSD with write speeds (hell, HDDs are slower in every way). So, as part of the Windows shutdown process, at least a proper shutdown not a "let's pull the power cord on the back of the machine" shutdown, Windows waits until the Windows write cache is fully flushed to the disk before the shutdown of the OS is complete.

Also, if we refer to this report... http://techreport.com/review/26701/samsung-850-pro-solid-state-drive-reviewed/2

That right there tells me that RAPID mode follows the same rules that the Windows Write Cache abides by so theoretically data loss should never happen if you shut down your machine properly and allow the write cache to be flushed to the disk.

Very true, but my point is, when you see a file copy transfer finish, it is not really finished and actually copying in the background, so one is either lying to himself with an illusion that the transfer finished at a blistering rate but it didn't really. So I don't enable RAPID or any other caching for that matter. It's just me maybe, but when I see a file transfer progress finished, it really has to be finished and not me sitting and guessing when it really finished.
post #5109 of 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXimus666 View Post

Very true, but my point is, when you see a file copy transfer finish, it is not really finished and actually copying in the background, so one is either lying to himself with an illusion that the transfer finished at a blistering rate but it didn't really. So I don't enable RAPID or any other caching for that matter. It's just me maybe, but when I see a file transfer progress finished, it really has to be finished and not me sitting and guessing when it really finished.

Theoretically speaking, even with RAPID mode turned off and using just the Windows Write Cache your file transfer may not actually be complete even if Windows says it's complete (ie. the GUI is gone). The only way to be sure that it's done is if we force a flush of the cache to disk and I personally don't know of any way to force one to happen.

post #5110 of 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXimus666 View Post

If you turn on CRAPID mode, you are not benchmarking your SSD anymore, you are benchmarking your RAM.

Translate that intro real world performance and it means absolutely nothing.

For example, test this.....

Copy a huge 10GB + video file or whatever large file you want from your C: partition to another partition on another disk......

you will notice that the Windows file copy progress finishes insanely fast.....the moment it finishes the copy, I want you to restart your system

then check that file you copied, it would be corrupt, reason is, yes the file copy progress finished fast, but it didn't finish really, all it was doing is copying the file from your SSD to the RAM Cache and not the actual 2nd SSD or HDD you were intending to copy to, then after it goes to your RAM Cache using CRAPID, it is supposed to copy from the RAM Cache onto the actual disk in the background which didn't happen in this test I did since I restart immediately after the fake file transfer progress was finished.

so it's just cheating + placebo effect

And after you read this, you will never enable RAPID again.....it will actually make your performance worse not better

A Closer look at the crappy CRAPID

i've read the arcticle before

if this explanation is for @CaucasianAsian that's fine, he'll appreciate it since he's running 840 version (hopefully samsung rolls out v2.1 to the older 840 customers n if the 840 customers update their ssd with it or not)

for me, i'm running 850, I'm aware of the risks but then I'm looking at less wear n tear for the ssd
yes i have transferred more than 12gig files, see that my target hdd can only go to 21mb/s, and know that the file can still be copying over in the background when its finished

I've only had one unexplained incident with a 430mb file so far
luckily I had a backup copy of the file.

@trparky
http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/minisite/SSD/downloads/document/Samsung_SSD_Rapid_Mode_Whitepaper_EN.pdf
Quote:
Are there any risks with using RAPID mode?
RAPID was specifically designed to not add any additional risk to user or system
data, even in the event of a power-loss. In fact, RAPID strictly adheres to Windows
conventions in its treatment of any buffered writes in DRAM -- RAPID obeys all
“flush” commands, so any writes buffered by RAPID will make it to the persistent
media just like the Windows OS cache or the HDD cache. (Consequently, the data
loss risk is identical to that of Windows OS cache or HDD cache).
Furthermore, RAPID mode is mindful of any changes in system behavior or
resource availability, meaning that RAPID will scale back or release (and re-acquire)
system resources seamlessly based on system activity and requirements. RAPID
consumes at most 25% of the installed DRAM, up to a maximum of 1GB, but will
scale down resource usage and eventually revert to a pass-through mode if the
CPU core(s) or DRAM is occupied with other system tasks. (This technology is really
designed to make use of excess system resources).

Edited by hhuey5 - 5/11/15 at 9:18am
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