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My RP452X2 extender pipe got a bit rusty - Page 2

post #11 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuzzDad View Post

Well...the thing i find fascinating is the junk on the wacky-looking pipe does not appear (yet) to have caused any other issues. Considering how fine the channels are on the CPU and GPU blocks I think that's extraordinary. I will say this...we spend thousands of dollars on these products and there's no real profit in it other than for our satisfaction...I would hope that Koolance and other companies w/issues would take a closer look at their QA programs...to the point where they should reach out to us early adopters and ask us to test their products. I guess that's being done but you don't hear to much about it. I know a few of the testing guys (Martin, etc) get products early, but my sense is they get them to drive sales...not to actually QA test over time. So if Koolance or XSPC, EK...whomever...wants a tester I'll be glad to be one. I've signed plenty of NDA's in my time as a level designer so sign me up.
All that said....my rig is quiet, the flow is solid, and the temps are slightly above ambient. I can't ask for better. When I show my friends pictures of a "car" radiator in my PC they look at me with that "are-u-out-of-your-mind??" look and it's all worth it.

Unfortunately you only get to see the public testing/reviews I do, and I find myself doing more private testing anymore than actual public. Not for everyone though and unfortunately many products hit production before any external testing was done.

But...a lot of private testing is done. Unfortunately I can't talk about it, but it's there. I've spent a lot of time testing radiators privately, and have recently and currently testing CPU blocks. For example, my 2600K round of CPU blocks only includes 7 published blocks, yet there are 10 more (17 total) that you will never see the results of. I have a small pile of prototype blocks that ultimately helped the manufacturers tweak their designs to make better production models for you and me. While I don't get the satisfaction of sharing the results, I do feel good that I'm helping in some way.

Anyhow some private testing does happen, but it's different for every manufacturer. I personally have tested preproduction prototypes for nearly everyone now and probably do more private work than public.

There is quite a bit of outreach to 3rd party testing on the the more common items like CPU blocks, but relatively little on pump tops/reservoirs.
Edited by Martinm210 - 12/28/11 at 5:55pm
    
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post #12 of 16
Thread Starter 
Cool Martin...but given the amount of testing involved and the eventual cost to consumers (where dropping $1,000 on a basic cooling set is common)...it seems to me there should be a wide range of user-testing to include prototype tests with end-users (as you describe) but also first-lot testing, etc. I'm not sure what happened over the last few years but there's been a mini-explosion in PC water-cooling products and clearly there have been some major QA failures across multiple companies and products in the rush to get things out. Maybe it's just hard keeping up w/intel and their incessant changes and I'm sure it's a cut-throat business...but I just get the sense the industry should reach out more...should engage rather than disengage.

In my day job I run all PC Tech support at a very large government agency and we engage users on all patch releases, all hardware releases, etc. In my after-hours time I've done level-design work for a major games company. In the former we're not looking to make a profit and beat competitors (as there are none)...but in both we're hell-bent on fixing all errors before release so we test with hundreds...so major mistakes like this, the EK nickle-plate issue, etc...are caught beforehand. Of course...every possible combination can't be tested...but I just don't think the companies are trying hard enough.
post #13 of 16
Yeah, I just think it's probably due to profit margins being so small. I personally have tried to manually mill my own CPU block and after 20+ hours of work, really came to appreciate the work involved in making them. We also don't have many people willing to test in any detail. It takes a huge amount of work and it's pretty thankless. I don't think any of them would decline good testing help, but they also don't have the profits to just hand out samples to your every day person who would do nothing more than an unboxing.

The other issue I see with many of the issues that crop up like corrosion is the time it takes to test that...it's just not something you can find out over night or even a week/month. I do occasionally do long term testing on parts I like enough to run, but it's not something I can do for everything. For example, I have been running a 402X2 long term in my son's computer since these first came out without a problem. Of coarse I'm also not running a bleed pipe kit either though, so I would be missing anything related.

The same goes for any of the nickel plating type stuff. History will show you that basically there isn't a plating out there that hasn't had some issues. We've seen major brands trying to plate aluminum blocks and such and they all had problems. Nickel plating is IMHO an indicator that water cooling has gone "Show". Despite the lack of any performance benefit, the majority of users still prefer the bling of nickel plating regardless of increased cost and problems over bare materials.

I have also seen block in development for 18months essentially miss the boat on being the top dog block trying to refine it. So while refinement and thorough testing sound good on paper, you can plan/test yourself out of competition too. The manufacturers have to get new ideas out on live products yesterday or their competition will beat them to it. I've seen that over and over now. The products evolve fast enough that the market essentially becomes the beta testers and they make improvements through revisions rather than prototypes.

In the end, the market and profits drive the processes, but you do have options. You can always choose to ignore the latest and greatest products and simply wait for those bugs to be worked out in future revisions.

PC-Tech is different for an agency though. The goal there is not to "play" with the latest and greatest, your mission is to keep production at a high level despite what newer versions are out there. Just like my office still running MS Office 2003, we're almost 9 years behind on software, but it work fine. In water cooling, the latest and greatest is very much priority for the market. Despite the performance differences being practically nothing, people want to buy what's new and what performs best and being the enthusiast level, many are also willing to buy beta level products if it means earlier releases.

Anyhow, I agree that there are many beta/alpha type products in production, but at the same time I understand the need and desire to do that. Early release is pretty critical for them and waiting to refine details could cost them more than releasing a bit early.
    
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post #14 of 16
Good points Martin.

There is also an issue that crops up from time to time with outsourced manufacturing to 3rd party companies, where there is little to no direct control of the materials or process by the company having the items manufactured.

There are ways a 3rd party manufacturer can skimp on materials, vs. what was specified, that it is difficult to detect without expensive materials or extended operational testing.
It is an increasingly common problem in many industries that do a lot of outsourcing.

While it is by no means limited to manufacturers in any particular region or country, this type of corruption is rampant among 3rd party manufacturers in China.
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post #15 of 16
Thread Starter 
And that resourcing method (go to China, look for cheapest vendor) demands you have a more robust QA than ever. And I don't give the headlining company any slack...they contracted out the work and it's their name on the product and they are beholden to the customer. And although idea-to-release must be fast...those companies that continue to release inferior products will eventually fail. It is interesting right now...I've seen more defects in water-cooling products recently on other things...like metal flash on the inside of compression fittings that hasn't been filed down, nickle plating wearing off, rough marks on plated products, pumps that vibrate too much, etc. W/C has clearly become a more robust niche than before or we wouldn't have so many choices now...clearly people are making money here...but all that speed has taken it's toll and we're the guinea pigs here.

My recommendation to the companies putting out these products is simple...stick to the very best suppliers you can and force the others out...or be prepared for the consequences. As much as I like the way Koolance products look...my experience w/them over the last year has been less than stellar...from this, to leaking quick-disconnects, to software problems with their fan/pump/flow meter controllers...all point to a weak QA process and all the posturing about how tough it is to put product out here falls on deaf ears. Remember what Microsoft did w/red-ring-of-death? They took a large loss but they replaced EVERY failed machine with an easy replacement process. Sure...MS has money to burn but they still recognized a flaw and corrected it. Blaming suppliers and a tough market-place is for wimps. If they admit they have QA issues and have a plan to fix it and will replace items that fail w/o end-users going through hoops then they'll have my cash for future consideration.

I'll bet Koolance understands this...I'll bet they are trying to work w/suppliers to do a better job...I'll further bet hearing about these issues on these boards is upsetting and I hope they have some guys in that company who are seething mad at their suppliers.
post #16 of 16
Thread Starter 
Update: I purged the loop, removed the pipe, could not find any other issue other than a small dot of corrosion on a Koolance quick-disconnect (nickel had worn off)...I decided to move up to a larger tubing size (3/8 OD to 3/4 OD) so I replaced all my fittings, tubing, and quick disconnects and I removed the silver coil. There was no water discoloration anywhere (CPU, GPU, radiators). Temps are fine, stress testing a i7 920 at 3.4 gets me to 58C w/idle of 30C. When I replaced the fittings on the CPU block the insides of the block looked perfect. I'll probably add some kind of biocide at some point...but for now just distilled. I suspect it was some kind of galvanic corrosion caught early before damage was done.
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