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Audio system questions: Seperates and Bi-Amping

post #1 of 37
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Hey guys. My PC is my primary entertainment system, but I am not planning on upgrading till Ivy Bridge and Piledriver come out, so I have some extra cash. Seeing as I use my computer for many of the things most people have a bunch of AV equipment in their living room for, I figured I would use the upgrade money to get me some home theatre sound out of my PC, but I have some questions first:

First of all, I don't listen to the radio (so I don't need a tuner) and since everything is being done through my PC, the only thing a receiver would really do for me is amplification. Given than, I was wondering if I stand to save any money by just going with separate, and if anyone can give me any leads on information regarding setting such a system up and good places to buy amplifiers and any other gear I might need.

Second. I have heard Bi-amping can give an increase in performance for a modest price. I haven't seen much about how modest that price increase is, and whether it is more cost effective to do that or if I would be better served by putting the same money into better amplifiers and speakers. Also, I have heard that receivers that claim to support bi-amping just do passive bi-amping which has an effectiveness close to bi-wiring, thus the cost effectiveness borders on scam; can anyone give me any more information on this? Beyond that, any information on just how to go about doing this, and where to find the electronic crossovers would be appreciated.

A final note, I am planning on moving my gear to a rack to clear up some of the clutter since I already have a several pieces of gear, and am hoping someone can point me in the direction of gear that can be rack mounted whether it comes with rack ears, or can have them added easily.
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post #2 of 37
I'd say that bi-amping doesn't net a cost-effective increase. Then again, I dunno how fat your wallet is.
And bi-wiring is just a giant PITA and has questionable "benefits."

And by separate do you mean buying a pre/pro and amps or just like an integrated amp? If you want HT/best possible sound, it would be better to connect with HDMI, something that no int. amp. I know of has.

Pro amps from QSC, Crown, etc have rack mounts. Emotiva's amps also have them (or at least the ability to IIRC). I dunno your budget tho. Higher end power supply/conditioners usually come with rack mounts.

A budget would determine whether or not you can go the pre/pro route or just receiver route.

Places to buy: partsexpress / vanns / bhphoto / newegg / amazon / audiogon / avsforums classifieds / pcrichard

As for receivers doing biamping, in the end it's your ears that have the final say in whether or not it's worth it.
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post #3 of 37
Active bi-amping such as with a device like DEQX, with 1000db/octave slopes can give you nearly holographic imaging, and simultaneously saves power by providing because each driver is only being fed signals within a small frequency range.

Passive bi-amping wastes a ton of energy at the crossover network because both sets of binding posts are being fed full range signals. In addition, with a typical receiver is in general, just a waste of speaker wire as you are just outputting power from a shared capacitor bank and power supply. Very few receivers can really give you more power through bi-amping. Off the top of my head, Pioneer SC receivers have separate amplifier circuits, each have their own capacitor banks, and the old Denon flagship, the AVR-5805, had two separate banks of capacitors. In these cases, you do get substantially more power from bi-amping.

The important question is, what is your budget? A basic 2.1 set of separates like the Emotiva XPA-2 amplifier and Emotiva UMC-1 pre/pro will cost you $1,298. If you want to actively power an entire surround sound setup I would just get a receiver like a Yamaha RX-A3000, Pioneer SC-57, Onkyo TX-NR5007, or a Denon 4311, as getting separate amplifiers for an entire surround setup can get pricey. All of the receivers I listed will have very robust amp sections and if this is just for your computer you will have more power than you will need.
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post #4 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Active bi-amping such as with a device like DEQX, with 1000db/octave slopes can give you nearly holographic imaging, and simultaneously saves power by providing because each driver is only being fed signals within a small frequency range.
Passive bi-amping wastes a ton of energy at the crossover network because both sets of binding posts are being fed full range signals. In addition, with a typical receiver is in general, just a waste of speaker wire as you are just outputting power from a shared capacitor bank and power supply. Very few receivers can really give you more power through bi-amping. Off the top of my head, Pioneer SC receivers have separate amplifier circuits, each have their own capacitor banks, and the old Denon flagship, the AVR-5805, had two separate banks of capacitors. In these cases, you do get substantially more power from bi-amping.
The important question is, what is your budget? A basic 2.1 set of separates like the Emotiva XPA-2 amplifier and Emotiva UMC-1 pre/pro will cost you $1,298. If you want to actively power an entire surround sound setup I would just get a receiver like a Yamaha RX-A3000, Pioneer SC-57, Onkyo TX-NR5007, or a Denon 4311, as getting separate amplifiers for an entire surround setup can get pricey. All of the receivers I listed will have very robust amp sections and if this is just for your computer you will have more power than you will need.

1000db slopes? Holy cow compare that to the 24 you usually see on higher end xovers (passive). But active xovers are expensive, and we don't know his budget. thinking.gif
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post #5 of 37
Yes, in fact I believe DEQX is currently working on a active DSP with 10,000 (ten thousand!) db/octave slopes. This is really for high end multi-amping solutions though, and you have to shell out 5 figures for this kind of technology.
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post #6 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugenester View Post

I'd say that bi-amping doesn't net a cost-effective increase. Then again, I dunno how fat your wallet is.
And bi-wiring is just a giant PITA and has questionable "benefits."
I've already heard that bi-wiring is of dubious use at best, but supposedly, by seperating high and low frequencies, active bi-amping is supposed to be a nice way to pump up sound quality. For the cost-effectiveness, I was looking more in general than a specific budget (regardless of budget is it more cost effective to bi amp with a lower power amp for the tweeters, or would the money be better spent on a bigger amp and better speakers.). Suffice it to say, I won't be doing a money no object setup and trying to squeeze every last bit of sound out. just trying to get the best I can for the least I can.
Quote:
And by separate do you mean buying a pre/pro and amps or just like an integrated amp? If you want HT/best possible sound, it would be better to connect with HDMI, something that no int. amp. I know of has.
Exactly. The only tangible thing I am expecting to get out of the reciever is the ampilification, so I was hoping, maybe I could just get a pre amp and set of power amps. I'm not reallysure what to make of the HDMI comment. Even the onboard sound can output surround sound (and I was thinking of getting a good sound card), and I would probably want to use the optical over HDMI anyways if I wentnwith an external DAC. Also, does a sound card put out enough of a signal for me to just skip the pre amp? For reference, I was thinking of picking up an HT|Omega Clario Halo and a good set of cans for when I can't use the speakers lest I wake the neighborhood,and it has a daughtercard with a couple of op amps onboard that outputs 7.1 to RCA jacks.
Quote:
Pro amps from QSC, Crown, etc have rack mounts. Emotiva's amps also have them (or at least the ability to IIRC). I dunno your budget tho. Higher end power supply/conditioners usually come with rack mounts.
A budget would determine whether or not you can go the pre/pro route or just receiver route.
Places to buy: partsexpress / vanns / bhphoto / newegg / amazon / audiogon / avsforums classifieds / pcrichard
As for receivers doing biamping, in the end it's your ears that have the final say in whether or not it's worth it.
Power conditioners are another thing I have heard give you dubious results. Some say it is a placebo, others say it can help, but it depends on the set-up (ie. they help if your setup generates low noise on its own, and your power is very dirty). At any rate, I am going to be getting a UPS that outputs a pure sinewave, so I don't think I'll need a power conditioner since that's part of the UPS's job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Active bi-amping such as with a device like DEQX, with 1000db/octave slopes can give you nearly holographic imaging, and simultaneously saves power by providing because each driver is only being fed signals within a small frequency range.
Mind explaining that in layman? I already know the seperating of the signals gives you better sound and saves power due in part to how the low frequency affects the amplifying of the higer frequencies (waveforms are additive, so the low frequency signal causes the peaks of the high frequency signal to be higher, thus requiring more maximum amplification), and due to passive crossover inefficiencies. The first sentence means nothing to me, however.
Quote:
Passive bi-amping wastes a ton of energy at the crossover network because both sets of binding posts are being fed full range signals. In addition, with a typical receiver is in general, just a waste of speaker wire as you are just outputting power from a shared capacitor bank and power supply. Very few receivers can really give you more power through bi-amping. Off the top of my head, Pioneer SC receivers have separate amplifier circuits, each have their own capacitor banks, and the old Denon flagship, the AVR-5805, had two separate banks of capacitors. In these cases, you do get substantially more power from bi-amping.
Yeah, what I've been hearing is that most recievers that claim to bi-amp, just run 2 amps to each speaker with the same signal, so the only thing you get is more power; my question was if there were some that actually seperated the signal into low and high frequency signals
Quote:
The important question is, what is your budget? A basic 2.1 set of separates like the Emotiva XPA-2 amplifier and Emotiva UMC-1 pre/pro will cost you $1,298. If you want to actively power an entire surround sound setup I would just get a receiver like a Yamaha RX-A3000, Pioneer SC-57, Onkyo TX-NR5007, or a Denon 4311, as getting separate amplifiers for an entire surround setup can get pricey. All of the receivers I listed will have very robust amp sections and if this is just for your computer you will have more power than you will need.
Are good amps really that expensive? How can they pack the power of a half dozen in a reciever along with other components for half the price then? What are the tradeoffs?
At any rate, my maximum budget is probably around $1200, and I may be able to go a bit higher, but I am hoping to go a bit lower. I am really hoping to a get a 5.1 system, but I can certainly start off with a 2.1 system and expand it later on, if that's a better option.


As an aside, what are some good sites to research home theatre topics like these?
Edited by BirdofPrey - 12/28/11 at 11:24pm
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post #7 of 37
You are better off spending more money on speakers. Distortion output on speakers are an order higher than amplifiers and should be the first thing you address.

And if you really have a money no object setup I would consider looking at the Revel Ultima Salon 2. This is the flagship loudspeaker of Harman International, which owns Crown, JBL, and hundreds of other audio brands. Some consider this the pinnacle of sound engineering--this speaker design was a collaboration of the umbrella companies under Harman International. The enclosure is nearly acoustically silent, and the off-axis dispersion output is as flat as you can get.

I have the smaller monitor in the series, the Revel Gem 2s and they are by far the best speakers I have ever heard.

Stereophile Review Here:
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/608revel


EDIT I see your budget has become $1200 LOL
Edited by astrallite - 12/28/11 at 11:37pm
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post #8 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

You are better off spending more money on speakers. Distortion output on speakers are an order higher than amplifiers and should be the first thing you address.
Removing the. rossover from the equation doesn't do anthing to reduce speaker distortion?
Quote:
EDIT I see your budget has become $1200 LOL
LOL?
Should I be expecting to pay more for a low to mid range system? I can go higher, but not by much, and I'd rather not.

Also, if you link me stuff, bookshelf speakers fit better into my space.
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post #9 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdofPrey View Post

I've already heard that bi-wiring is of dubious use at best, but supposedly, by seperating high and low frequencies, active bi-amping is supposed to be a nice way to pump up sound quality. For the cost-effectiveness, I was looking more in general than a specific budget (regardless of budget is it more cost effective to bi amp with a lower power amp for the tweeters, or would the money be better spent on a bigger amp and better speakers.). Suffice it to say, I won't be doing a money no object setup and trying to squeeze every last bit of sound out. just trying to get the best I can for the least I can.

Well given your revised budget is $1200 for an entire system, there is no way you can fit active bi-amping. A "super cheap" bi-amp solution would be a pair Behringer A500's ($400) and Behringer DCX2496 ($250). This will allow you to bi-amp ONE SPEAKER. It would cost you $1,300 alone for this "low end brand bi-amp" setup. Which is above your entire 2.1 budget.
Quote:
Power conditioners are another thing I have heard give you dubious results. Some say it is a placebo, others say it can help, but it depends on the set-up (ie. they help if your setup generates low noise on its own, and your power is very dirty). At any rate, I am going to be getting a UPS that outputs a pure sinewave, so I don't think I'll need a power conditioner since that's part of the UPS's job.

I'm pretty sure alot of these "power conditioners" are just pretty light making boxes, but what they *should* do is reduce line sag so you don't drop significantly below 120V when you turn on all your high powered devices. Watts = Volts x Amps. A US wall socket will provide an even 15 amps, so if the line sags to 115V, you've just lost 75 watts of potential power.
Quote:
Are good amps really that expensive? How can they pack the power of a half dozen in a reciever along with other components for half the price then? What are the tradeoffs?
At any rate, my maximum budget is probably around $1200, and I may be able to go a bit higher, but I am hoping to go a bit lower. I am really hoping to a get a 5.1 system, but I can certainly start off with a 2.1 system and expand it later on, if that's a better option.
As an aside, what are some good sites to research home theatre topics like these?

Walmart sells things dirt cheap because they push a ton of volume. If they make 1 penny for every item they sell and sell a billion items, they've made a billion dollars. A smaller company can't compete with those kind of prices because they don't expect to sell that many.

Power amplifiers are niche products, so by default you should consider they aren't priced competitively with a high-volume product like a receiver.

Secondly, receivers have much smaller amps than a power amplifier. The Yamaha RX-A3010 costs $1900, and has a 620VA transformer, and 36,000uf of capacitance. The $849 XPA-1 monoblock has a 1200VA transformer, and 120,000uF of capacitance. The Receiver is expected to drive up to 9 channels with that one transformer--and power video circuitry and DSP!

A receiver does a lot more, and is a much better value because it's a volume product and sells at an artificially low value. But don't expect magic from the amplifiers. Most of the cost of a receiver is in licensing costs. You want a HDMI 1.4a? $70/unit. You want THX Ultra 2 certification? $100/unit. By the time all the licensing costs are paid, and the video and electronics are installed, there's not much money left for the amplifier.
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post #10 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdofPrey View Post

LOL?
Should I be expecting to pay more for a low to mid range system? I can go higher, but not by much, and I'd rather not.
Also, if you link me stuff, bookshelf speakers fit better into my space.

I'm loling at myself because I spent all this time typing about a product based on the assumption you had an unlimited budget. I am not laughing at your budget. You were bringing up the subject on bi-amping, separates, etc. My assumption was, if someone is starting a thread on the topic of separates they were already considering a five figure budget.

As far as your budget goes, for 2.1 you need to budget yourself for 1) receiver 2) subwoofer 3) a pair of mains

Starting with the subwoofer I would get a Hsu STF-1 ($270). It's affordable, and performs very well (flat to 28Hz) in a small room.

STF-1 Link

For a receiver if you just want a stereo amplifier, I would recommend a HK 3490 ($250) Link Here. It has no HDMI but has an excellent amp section. If you do need a receiver with HDMI, the Yamaha RX-V667 has discrete amplifiers and is affordable.

Yamaha RX-V667 Link

This should leave $600 or $700 left for your main speakers. I think under this price range the best monitors will likely be the Swan D2.1se+. It did very well in this speaker shootout/review: Review Link

Swan D2.1se+ Link
Edited by astrallite - 12/29/11 at 12:09am
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