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Why all the Bulldozer hate?!? - Page 11  

post #101 of 115
A CPU can be bad, ok, good, great, Amazing. People believed BD would crush Intel ever since Core 2 era and waiting for so long. To AMD fan-boys BD would be in Amazing part. I was part of that group. Now after it came out its a ok CPU that can do almost every you need it to do but its not great or mazing. Any new car can go from point a to b but how u get there is the difference and how fast. This is OCN so people are after Amazing stuff now ok (average) stuff.
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post #102 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumatra View Post

Video encoding rendering. Anything heavily cpu reliant. This cpu will fall short.

Demonstrably false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumatra View Post

People excusing AMD saying softwaer patches and other things are going to improve performance is rediculous. Its like Toyota building a car that doesnt run right and saying to hold out until new parts software/technology is avalable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L D4WG View Post

What? Windows cannot fully utilize Bulldozer?
What on earth does that mean? Its too new for Windows..? What?

It's a wonder how this notion that new architectures haven't benefited from receiving proper application, and OS-level support, continues to come up in these discussions.

While no informed person would reasonably argue that miraculous improvements can come from a Windows patch alone, there are numerous instances of software updates, CPU steppings, fabrication and BIOS/microcode improvements having positive results in performance.


AMD, Intel, and others have had somewhat similar problems in the past. It helps if you know certain bits of history; both factual technical issues, and perceived technical issues.


FIX: Systems that have Intel Hyper-Threading technology installed and later disabled may not enter the ACPI C1 processor idle sleep state
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/817027

Hyper-Threading considered harmful
http://www.daemonology.net/hyperthreading-considered-harmful/

Enabling Hyperthreading in Windows XP
http://echeng.com/journal/2005/05/28/enabling-hyperthreading-in-windows-xp/

Link to P4 Hyperthreading patch for XP
http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/link-p4-hyperthreading-patch-xp-t1949904.html

Windows 7 Optimized for HyperThreading
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-hyperthreading-intel-nehalem-atom,7831.html

Hyper Threading Implications and Setup on Microsoft Operating Systems
http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/hyper-threading-implications-and-setup-on-microsoft-operating-systems/

Windows Support for Hyper-Threading Technology
http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/7/7/577a5684-8a83-43ae-9272-ff260a9c20e2/Hyper-thread_Windows.doc

Intel HyperThreading: Problems You Should Know
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/news168.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper-threading
Quote:
Details

If the operating system's thread scheduler is unaware of hyper-threading it will treat all four processors as being the same. If only two threads are eligible to run it might choose to schedule those threads on the two logical processors that happen to belong to one of the physical processors; that processor would become extremely busy while the other would be idle, leading to poorer performance than is possible with better scheduling. This problem can be avoided by improving the scheduler to treat logical processors differently from physical processors; in a sense, this is a limited form of the scheduler changes that are required for NUMA systems.
Quote:
Drawback history

When the first HT processors were released it was difficult for some users to decide whether to enable it, because many of them were still using operating systems that were not optimized for hyper-threading technology (e.g. Windows 2000),[13] Also, since most computers had previously had single-threaded processors, few programs were able to take advantage of the feature on their own.

In 2006, hyper-threading was criticised for being energy-inefficient. For example, specialist low-power CPU design company ARM has stated simultaneous multithreading (SMT) can use up to 46% more power than dual-core designs. Furthermore, they claim SMT increases cache thrashing by 42%, whereas dual core results in a 37% decrease.[14] Intel has disputed this claim, stating that hyper-threading is highly efficient because it simply uses resources that would otherwise be idle. In 2010, ARM has stated that it will include simultaneous multithreading in its chips in the future.[15]

Those are only a few quickly thrown together links. I'm sure there are more thorough ones, on this and other instances.
post #103 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

Exactly but you never know with AMD they shipped parts in late march or late april for Llano and we didn't see Llano till June
I am still waiting to hear about "Project WIN" lol
326
This is the latest leak so far in Oct 25th
Then we also have the mysterious A10 APU
159

That isn't a Piledriver graph.
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post #104 of 115
its not appealing to me price or benchmarks! /thread
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post #105 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by L D4WG View Post

What? Windows cannot fully utilize Bulldozer?
What on earth does that mean? Its too new for Windows..? What?

Um ya sure is possible. My Galaxy 2 with Gingerbread doesn't utilize my 2 cores properly. Why can't this happen with a PC OS??

Edit: Im not saying I know for sure but it certainly isn't improbable.
Edited by noahhova - 1/4/12 at 3:55pm
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post #106 of 115
Because it's simply not that good to summarize what everyone else is saying.

This is why I just don't understand what AMD is doing. They're never going to be able to compete with Intel if they keep releasing crappy CPUs, good thing they bought ATI and sell graphics cards now. I just don't understand why they just don't make better CPUs. I like AMD GPUs.

I mean they're decent CPUs but I would never choose one over an Intel, it doesn't really make sense that they release Bulldozer AFTER Sandy Bridge yet Sandy Bridge CPUs outperform Bulldozer CPUs in nearly every benchmark.

However, I will says that Llano is pretty good, much better than Intels HD3000. Not bad for an integrated graphics chip.
    
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post #107 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmac73 View Post

That isn't a Piledriver graph.

Trinity is Piledriver

http://old.nabble.com/-PATCH--AMD-bdver2-processors-2-2---TBM-p30502191.html
Quote:
These two patches add support for BMI and TBM ISAs to be introduced in
AMD bdver2 processors.

AMD's Trailing Bit Manipulation (TBM) instruction set, available on AMD's BDVER2 processors (Trinity and Viperfish).

TBM instructions provide instructions implementing individual bit manipulation operations such as isolating, masking, setting, resetting, complementing, and operations on trailing zeros and ones.

Bulldozer = bdver1, Fam K15 00h-0Fh
Piledriver = bdver2, Fam K15 10h-1Fh

422
424
Edited by Seronx - 1/4/12 at 4:06pm
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post #108 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Companies should be selling products for today.... not for products for the future. Of course planning for the future is important but AMD should be improving the performance of software today first.
The future does not matter as much because.... in the future, you can release another product. It will take years before the instruction set extensions to be common. By that time, we will be a few CPU generations more.
Losing in the short-term for the possibility of long-term advantage is a risky move in the CPU world. Look at Phenom.....

This is wrong thinking IMO because AMD developed new instruction sets to compete with Intel and ARM, thus future proofing their design rather than always being behind the power curve in CPU development. Now, your thinking could be right IF, and I say a big IF, there was a 3rd neutral party setting standardized instruction set(s) for the industry and follow the examples of other industry standards (like IDE, SATA, PCI etc). Then one could, in theory, develop product for today and the future because everything would be set by the 3rd party, like roll-out dates etc and software developers could use this to develop more evenly balanced software that is current to the hardware, not always playing catch up with hardware as it has been for years.
BULLDOZER!!!
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post #109 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumatra View Post

:)7.74 for an 8 core chip is pathetic. My i5 scores 7.36 @4.5GHz. With only4 cores...

^this. 1600T @ 4.2GHz scores a 7.40. Unlocked to six, though.redface.gif
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post #110 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metric View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumatra View Post

Video encoding rendering. Anything heavily cpu reliant. This cpu will fall short.

Demonstrably false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumatra View Post

People excusing AMD saying softwaer patches and other things are going to improve performance is rediculous. Its like Toyota building a car that doesnt run right and saying to hold out until new parts software/technology is avalable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L D4WG View Post

What? Windows cannot fully utilize Bulldozer?
What on earth does that mean? Its too new for Windows..? What?

It's a wonder how this notion that new architectures haven't benefited from receiving proper application, and OS-level support, continues to come up in these discussions.

While no informed person would reasonably argue that miraculous improvements can come from a Windows patch alone, there are numerous instances of software updates, CPU steppings, fabrication and BIOS/microcode improvements having positive results in performance.


AMD, Intel, and others have had somewhat similar problems in the past. It helps if you know certain bits of history; both factual technical issues, and perceived technical issues.


FIX: Systems that have Intel Hyper-Threading technology installed and later disabled may not enter the ACPI C1 processor idle sleep state
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/817027

Hyper-Threading considered harmful
http://www.daemonology.net/hyperthreading-considered-harmful/

Enabling Hyperthreading in Windows XP
http://echeng.com/journal/2005/05/28/enabling-hyperthreading-in-windows-xp/

Link to P4 Hyperthreading patch for XP
http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/link-p4-hyperthreading-patch-xp-t1949904.html

Windows 7 Optimized for HyperThreading
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-hyperthreading-intel-nehalem-atom,7831.html

Hyper Threading Implications and Setup on Microsoft Operating Systems
http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/hyper-threading-implications-and-setup-on-microsoft-operating-systems/

Windows Support for Hyper-Threading Technology
http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/7/7/577a5684-8a83-43ae-9272-ff260a9c20e2/Hyper-thread_Windows.doc

Intel HyperThreading: Problems You Should Know
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/news168.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper-threading
Quote:
Details

If the operating system's thread scheduler is unaware of hyper-threading it will treat all four processors as being the same. If only two threads are eligible to run it might choose to schedule those threads on the two logical processors that happen to belong to one of the physical processors; that processor would become extremely busy while the other would be idle, leading to poorer performance than is possible with better scheduling. This problem can be avoided by improving the scheduler to treat logical processors differently from physical processors; in a sense, this is a limited form of the scheduler changes that are required for NUMA systems.
Quote:
Drawback history

When the first HT processors were released it was difficult for some users to decide whether to enable it, because many of them were still using operating systems that were not optimized for hyper-threading technology (e.g. Windows 2000),[13] Also, since most computers had previously had single-threaded processors, few programs were able to take advantage of the feature on their own.

In 2006, hyper-threading was criticised for being energy-inefficient. For example, specialist low-power CPU design company ARM has stated simultaneous multithreading (SMT) can use up to 46% more power than dual-core designs. Furthermore, they claim SMT increases cache thrashing by 42%, whereas dual core results in a 37% decrease.[14] Intel has disputed this claim, stating that hyper-threading is highly efficient because it simply uses resources that would otherwise be idle. In 2010, ARM has stated that it will include simultaneous multithreading in its chips in the future.[15]

Those are only a few quickly thrown together links. I'm sure there are more thorough ones, on this and other instances.

Awesome man good info here. Hyperthreading is over a decade old and they still were "perfecting it" with Windows 7! Bulldozer's been out for 3 months and a patch is right around the corner. AMD is a very innovative company and they really took a huge risk with BD's modular design and lengthy pipelines (for more clock speed presumably?) Thanks for actually doing some research to back your statement up. +1'd ya
    
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