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[Blastr]NASA reveals: We're going to Jupiter! - Page 6

post #51 of 105
I want to go to Pluto... and issue it an apology letter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xHighAlert View Post

FTA
Fxxx The Army? That's the only acronym I know for FTA.
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post #52 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroc91 View Post

Science time! Temperature is not directly related to heat. In the near vacuum of space, what few particles there are are very cold. However, because they're so few and far between, radiation is the only viable cooling method. Compared to convection or conduction, though, radiation is very inefficient. Even on the moon, a computer would not be able to get rid of heat fast enough. So, just because something is cold doesn't mean it can conduct heat very well.
Edit: Keep in mind that a thermos works on this principle. the air between the outer part and inner part is vacuumed out, greatly reducing heat transfer from the contents to the environment and vice versa.

^ PHYS 101 in action
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post

Temperature is absolutely directly related to heat. They're both measurements of energy of a system, and you can relate the two via the heat capacity of the system. Unless you're undergoing a phase change, if you increase the heat in a system, it will directly result in an increase of the temperature of the system. And conversely, if you remove heat from a system, it will directly result in a decrease of the temperature of the system (again, assuming you're not undergoing a phase change).
The issue comes down to how you remove heat from the system in order to reduce its temperature. If you're relying on convection, if there's nothing in an environment to practically remove heat from a system, it doesn't matter how "cold" the environment is around it. The reason we think of space as "cold" is because the average kinetic energy of the particles within a volume of space is low--that's because space is a near-vacuum, with very few particles in a given volume--there just aren't enough particles to make conventional convection a reasonable method for cooling something with heat. But that doesn't change the direct relationship between the measurement of heat a system has and its temperature.

^ Never read conceptual physical science textbook


http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_classroom/light_lessons/thermal/differ.html

Quote:
We have all noticed that when you heat something up, its temperature rises. Often we think that heat and temperature are the same thing. However, this is not the case. Heat and temperature are related to each other, but are different concepts.

Heat is the total energy of molecular motion in a substance while temperature is a measure of the average energy of molecular motion in a substance. Heat energy depends on the speed of the particles, the number of particles (the size or mass), and the type of particles in an object. Temperature does not depend on the size or type of object. For example, the temperature of a small cup of water might be the same as the temperature of a large tub of water, but the tub of water has more heat because it has more water and thus more total thermal energy

Edited by DrDarkTempler - 1/6/12 at 1:32pm
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post #53 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVenom View Post

I want to go to Pluto... and issue it an apology letter.
Fxxx The Army? That's the only acronym I know for FTA.

FTA = From the Article.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTA 
Because of the constant flow of powerful radiation hitting Europa courtesy of Jupiter—and because fitting the landers with radiation shields is expensive and makes the journey more difficult—each robot would have a working lifespan of about seven days.

Seven days!? That's not nearly long enough to drill through the ice and then captures images from inside the stomach of an alien moon-space-whale. frown.gif

Speaking of which, I was joking with my dad the other day about said scenario:

"The Europan submersible is now transmitting live video feed of the ocean!"

*giant space-whale devours submersible*

"I'd call that a big 'yes' to the, 'Is there life elsewhere?' question."
Edited by Warhaven - 1/6/12 at 1:43pm
post #54 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDarkTempler View Post

^ PHYS 101 in action
^ Never read conceptual physical science textbook
http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_classroom/light_lessons/thermal/differ.html
Quote:
We have all noticed that when you heat something up, its temperature rises. Often we think that heat and temperature are the same thing. However, this is not the case. Heat and temperature are related to each other, but are different concepts.
Heat is the total energy of molecular motion in a substance while temperature is a measure of the average energy of molecular motion in a substance. Heat energy depends on the speed of the particles, the number of particles (the size or mass), and the type of particles in an object. Temperature does not depend on the size or type of object. For example, the temperature of a small cup of water might be the same as the temperature of a large tub of water, but the tub of water has more heat because it has more water and thus more total thermal energy

I never said that temperature and heat are the same thing, or that if the temperature of two objects are the same that they must have the same internal energy--but the statement was made earlier that temperature is not directly related to heat, which is false. Heat is a measure of energy. Temperature is the measurement of that energy based on the property of the material you're measuring. They are absolutely directly related, which is why you can predict the temperature change of an object if you know the heat supplied to the object and its specific heat capacity.
    
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post #55 of 105
Very interesting article, even the replies in this thread were a good read thumb.gif
post #56 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosblade02 View Post

Europa is probably the most interesting object in our solar system other than Earth, because its frozen water ice, and they think a large ocean is underneath the thick ice shell. If there is water, then its got the highest probability of having some kind of life out of anything else in the solar system. A thick sheet of ice would also act sorta like an atmosphere and keep out solar radiation from penetrating to the ocean below it. Which might make it suitable for some kind of sea base colony in the future. It would be neat if they ended up finding some really strange sea life in the oceans below the ice.

It is true, speculation leads scientist to believe liquid water exists under a layer of ice on Europa. The reason for this is that Europa orbits Jupiter in a egg shaped orbit. With Jupiter's huge gravitational pull each time Europa makes a complete orbit around Jupiter scientists believe that Jupiter's gravitational pull causes Europa to stretch during orbit and cause what we know as friction at Europa's core, which in turn produces heat. Being the size of well... a planet you can image the amount of heat that can be generated by friction when stretching a planet. Let alone the thick ice acts as a barrier to keep that energy enclosed. I personally think there is water under the ice no questions asked. Beyond other things the ice barrier would mean any life form in existence on Europa would be subject to producing its own form of light. I wanna see a squid that glows like a 60 watt light bulb thumb.gif
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post #57 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloitz View Post

I'd be happy if I could even go to the moon. Imagine the ambient temps you would have there :O

shade or sun?
yeah thats EXACTLY what I thought...
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post #58 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post

I never said that temperature and heat are the same thing, or that if the temperature of two objects are the same that they must have the same internal energy--but the statement was made earlier that temperature is not directly related to heat, which is false. Heat is a measure of energy. Temperature is the measurement of that energy based on the property of the material you're measuring. They are absolutely directly related, which is why you can predict the temperature change of an object if you know the heat supplied to the object and its specific heat capacity.

But it's not. I'll repeat what's already been stated: A bathtub of water and a cup of water can be the same temperature, but have vastly different amounts of heat. There are factors besides just temperature and heat.

Again: your point is only valid if you're comparing identical amounts of matter, which was not the case originally. Andrew made the assumption that because space is cold, computers would run cold in space/on the moon, which is a completely incorrect assumption. He didn't understand that because there is so little matter, heat exchange would be almost non-existent.
    
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post #59 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warmonger View Post

Jupiter has over 60 moons. Europa is a all water moon, the element responsible for sustaining life on earth, so we figure there must be life forms there. For those who don't know, our reason for going there is in search of extra terrestrial life. I have seen the prototype bot they plan on submersing under the ice to automatically collect samples of life. So this trip maybe ten times more important then our trip to our own moon, as it may answer the question "do other life forms exist".

The fact that people insist that lifeforms require water to exist on other planets baffles me. life on this planet evolved to use water/oxygen to survive because it was an abundant source of nourishment/food. Theoretically any single planet could have once if not still sustain life because they would have evolved to cope with the conditions. Just because we cant survive there doesn't mean nothing can.
for example look at the current lifeform found on earth that is arsnic based rather than carbon based (link) it would never survive in any other environment

Rant over biggrin.gif
post #60 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousAddict View Post

The fact that people insist that lifeforms require water to exist on other planets baffles me. life on this planet evolved to use water/oxygen to survive because it was an abundant source of nourishment/food. Theoretically any single planet could have once if not still sustain life because they would have evolved to cope with the conditions. Just because we cant survive there doesn't mean nothing can.
for example look at the current lifeform found on earth that is arsnic based rather than carbon based (link) it would never survive in any other environment
Rant over biggrin.gif

I don't think anyone insists that life requires water. The reason people look for water is because we only have one confirmed example of life existing, and that is on this planet. So far, we have found one planet with heat, water, electricity, hydrogen sulfide, CO2, nitrogen, etc, and that planet is earth. This planet is absolutely LOADED with life in every crevice, even when we think life couldn't possibly exist (like that arsenic life you linked).

So if you only get a chance to send a probe every 30 years to one planet/moon based on NASA's budget, are you going to make a philosophical argument about the probability of silicon based waterless life, or are you going to aim that probe at a moon relatively close to earth with comparable conditions? Sounds like an easy choice to me. We need to take one step at a time and base decision off of the best evidence we have.

Maybe someday we will be able to prove otherwise, but for now we just don't have enough information, technology, or money to chase anything but life that resembles life on earth.
    
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