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[FZ] Nvidia partners concerned about AMD's 28nm lead - Page 9

post #81 of 116
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Originally Posted by CULLEN View Post


What are you even talking about? GTX480 > HD5870 > GTX470 is slightly over HD5850, although take notice that the GTX470 draws about 30-40% more power than HD5850, as well does it run much much hotter and louder.
If you would overclock the HD5850 to the level where it draws the same power as the GTX470 it would destroy it, you can count on that buddy boy..

Exactly. Which is why they were so disappointing. Theres nothing impressive about edging out your opponent in performance but sucking a ton more power and running way hotter. Especially when the 5xxx series had already been out for ages.

I doubt Kepler will be a disaster like the original Fermi, although I also doubt performance will be doubled. That was no doubt nvidia trying to draw attention away from the 7970. Kepler will likely be faster than Tahiti, but AMD have time now to work on a reply to Kepler. AMD are ahead in this regard.

nVidia won't be happy about the situation they are in, but they are by no means in any real trouble. I would love to see Kepler prove me wrong and completely blow away Fermi and Tahiti, I just don't think that will happen. It'll be impressive though, no doubt.
post #82 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by CULLEN View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shozzking 
The GTX 480 did run extremely hot and wasn't very powerful at launch. If I remember correctly then the 480 was somewhere just above a 5870 at launch and the 470 was just above a 5850. However after 4 months then the 470 ran slightly better than the 5870 (at the price of a 5850) and the 480 was very close to the 5970. You can always trust nVidia with good driver updates.

What are you even talking about? GTX480 > HD5870 > GTX470 is slightly over HD5850, although take notice that the GTX470 draws about 30-40% more power than HD5850, as well does it run much much hotter and louder.

If you would overclock the HD5850 to the level where it draws the same power as the GTX470 it would destroy it, you can count on that buddy boy..

The fact of the matter is you can't. Even if it draws more power and puts out more heat, most enthusiasts really don't care much about those. Just performance. And seriously, stop using launch driver comparisons. HD5870/5850 got some improvements but Fermi got some massive improvements, my GTX 470 is about as fast as a HD5970 because it's at 830Mhz, if not faster. HD5850 doesn't OC anywhere near the level of a 470 either.

Sometimes you take certain disadvantages for certain advantages, I got my 470 for cheap. It's very fast, especially when OCed. The heat and power output don't really matter much to me either.
Some people might actually go Bulldozer because it can actually be faster than SB for encoding, for example. Sure, more heat, power, etc but if they primarily encode then it'd benefit them.
    
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post #83 of 116
Personally I'll just wait half a year for kepler. If it doesn't do good, oh well, at least the price will reflect it. thus i'm the direct beneficiary of said scenario.
post #84 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CULLEN View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shozzking 
The GTX 480 did run extremely hot and wasn't very powerful at launch. If I remember correctly then the 480 was somewhere just above a 5870 at launch and the 470 was just above a 5850. However after 4 months then the 470 ran slightly better than the 5870 (at the price of a 5850) and the 480 was very close to the 5970. You can always trust nVidia with good driver updates.

What are you even talking about? GTX480 > HD5870 > GTX470 is slightly over HD5850, although take notice that the GTX470 draws about 30-40% more power than HD5850, as well does it run much much hotter and louder.

If you would overclock the HD5850 to the level where it draws the same power as the GTX470 it would destroy it, you can count on that buddy boy..

The fact of the matter is you can't. Even if it draws more power and puts out more heat, most enthusiasts really don't care much about those. Just performance. And seriously, stop using launch driver comparisons. HD5870/5850 got some improvements but Fermi got some massive improvements, my GTX 470 is about as fast as a HD5970 because it's at 830Mhz, if not faster. HD5850 doesn't OC anywhere near the level of a 470 either.

Sometimes you take certain disadvantages for certain advantages, I got my 470 for cheap. It's very fast, especially when OCed. The heat and power output don't really matter much to me either.
Some people might actually go Bulldozer because it can actually be faster than SB for encoding, for example. Sure, more heat, power, etc but if they primarily encode then it'd benefit them.

There were actually quite a few people who cared about heat and power loss. Saving $50 on a card doesn't seem like much of a deal whe you're going to be paying $100 extra a year for the electricity to power your card and air conditioning
    
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post #85 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post

There were actually quite a few people who cared about heat and power loss. Saving $50 on a card doesn't seem like much of a deal whe you're going to be paying $100 extra a year for the electricity to power your card and air conditioning

Same goes for overclocking your CPU, and not to bash you (honestly wink.gif) or others but also choosing a power hungry Phenom II or Bulldozer setup over a SB one. $100 is a lot of difference though, I don't think the difference is that big since the card isn't full load @ Furmark 24/7.
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post #86 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neroh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CULLEN View Post

Source of my own very true joke? Uhm, I don't know.. my hilarious brain?
What are you even talking about? GTX480 > HD5870 > GTX470 is slightly over HD5850, although take notice that the GTX470 draws about 30-40% more power than HD5850, as well does it run much much hotter and louder.
If you would overclock the HD5850 to the level where it draws the same power as the GTX470 it would destroy it, you can count on that buddy boy..

Exactly. Which is why they were so disappointing. Theres nothing impressive about edging out your opponent in performance but sucking a ton more power and running way hotter. Especially when the 5xxx series had already been out for ages.

I doubt Kepler will be a disaster like the original Fermi, although I also doubt performance will be doubled. That was no doubt nvidia trying to draw attention away from the 7970. Kepler will likely be faster than Tahiti, but AMD have time now to work on a reply to Kepler. AMD are ahead in this regard.

nVidia won't be happy about the situation they are in, but they are by no means in any real trouble. I would love to see Kepler prove me wrong and completely blow away Fermi and Tahiti, I just don't think that will happen. It'll be impressive though, no doubt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post

There were actually quite a few people who cared about heat and power loss. Saving $50 on a card doesn't seem like much of a deal whe you're going to be paying $100 extra a year for the electricity to power your card and air conditioning

Same goes for overclocking your CPU, and not to bash you (honestly wink.gif) or others but also choosing a power hungry Phenom II or Bulldozer setup over a SB one. $100 is a lot of difference though, I don't think the difference is that big since the card isn't full load @ Furmark 24/7.

Having a ridiculously high TDP part hurts nvidia regardless of how well a chip performs. Ever wonder why nvidia never had a console design win, while AMD powers practically all of them? (including the upcoming Wii U and xbox 720). This is why. Of course, some high end PC enthusiasts/hobbyists won't care.

Lets take the GTX 480 for example. When reviews initially hit the web for it, the power use was shocking - 450W for a single card? That is ridiculous. Keep in mind that heavy overclockig can easily add 150-200W on top of that. My 580s for instance, gain more than 200w from overclocking. With all of this in mind, the 5xx series is everything that Fermi was supposed to be. Reasonable TDP and great performance, without making your PC a space heater.
Edited by xoleras - 1/7/12 at 11:11am
post #87 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

The fact of the matter is you can't. Even if it draws more power and puts out more heat, most enthusiasts really don't care much about those. Just performance. And seriously, stop using launch driver comparisons. HD5870/5850 got some improvements but Fermi got some massive improvements, my GTX 470 is about as fast as a HD5970 because it's at 830Mhz, if not faster. HD5850 doesn't OC anywhere near the level of a 470 either.
Sometimes you take certain disadvantages for certain advantages, I got my 470 for cheap. It's very fast, especially when OCed. The heat and power output don't really matter much to me either.
Some people might actually go Bulldozer because it can actually be faster than SB for encoding, for example. Sure, more heat, power, etc but if they primarily encode then it'd benefit them.

According to Anandtech's testing, the GTX 560 Ti 448 core at 732MHz is MUCH slower than the 5970 -- it appears, on average, to be between 25 and 35% slower. Say it's 25% slower on average. Your 470 is clocked roughly 13% higher than that. So you still have the 5970 being 12% faster at minimum. I'm not aware of any new technology in the 5xx series that boosts per-core and/or per-clock performance, but if there is, that is further proof for my argument. Likewise I'm not sure if any feature of the GTX 470 is absent in the GTX 560 Ti 448 core; if there is then please let me know and I'll retract and shut up.

Considering the GTX 560 Ti 448 is quite a recent release, I'm pretty sure these great drivers you're talking about had already been released -- after all, I could've easily used the fact that the 512-core GTX 580 at 772MHz is slower than the 5970 in Anand's testing as proof.
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post #88 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CULLEN View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shozzking 
The GTX 480 did run extremely hot and wasn't very powerful at launch. If I remember correctly then the 480 was somewhere just above a 5870 at launch and the 470 was just above a 5850. However after 4 months then the 470 ran slightly better than the 5870 (at the price of a 5850) and the 480 was very close to the 5970. You can always trust nVidia with good driver updates.

What are you even talking about? GTX480 > HD5870 > GTX470 is slightly over HD5850, although take notice that the GTX470 draws about 30-40% more power than HD5850, as well does it run much much hotter and louder.

If you would overclock the HD5850 to the level where it draws the same power as the GTX470 it would destroy it, you can count on that buddy boy..

The fact of the matter is you can't. Even if it draws more power and puts out more heat, most enthusiasts really don't care much about those. Just performance. And seriously, stop using launch driver comparisons. HD5870/5850 got some improvements but Fermi got some massive improvements, my GTX 470 is about as fast as a HD5970 because it's at 830Mhz, if not faster. HD5850 doesn't OC anywhere near the level of a 470 either.

Sometimes you take certain disadvantages for certain advantages, I got my 470 for cheap. It's very fast, especially when OCed. The heat and power output don't really matter much to me either.
Some people might actually go Bulldozer because it can actually be faster than SB for encoding, for example. Sure, more heat, power, etc but if they primarily encode then it'd benefit them.

There were actually quite a few people who cared about heat and power loss. Saving $50 on a card doesn't seem like much of a deal whe you're going to be paying $100 extra a year for the electricity to power your card and air conditioning

Saved more than $50, actually. I got mine with a waterblock included for AU$200. (As much as a new GTX 560 non-ti here)

And I just open my door or window, even on a day where it got to 37.8c here I wasn't uncomfortable sitting in my room playing BF3 on a highly overclocked card. As for power, I turn my rig off when I'm not using it (For other reasons, Windows always seems to screw up for me when I leave it on too long) so power consumption probably is equal to most other people who leave their rigs on 24/7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Having a ridiculously high TDP part hurts nvidia regardless of how well a chip performs. Ever wonder why nvidia never had a console design win, while AMD powers practically all of them? (including the upcoming Wii U and xbox 720). This is why. Of course, some high end PC enthusiasts/hobbyists won't care.

Uh, the original Xbox and PS3 use nVidia chips. nVidia doesn't really need to worry about consoles either, they have the GPGPU market and are competing well in the ARM Tablet market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

The fact of the matter is you can't. Even if it draws more power and puts out more heat, most enthusiasts really don't care much about those. Just performance. And seriously, stop using launch driver comparisons. HD5870/5850 got some improvements but Fermi got some massive improvements, my GTX 470 is about as fast as a HD5970 because it's at 830Mhz, if not faster. HD5850 doesn't OC anywhere near the level of a 470 either.
Sometimes you take certain disadvantages for certain advantages, I got my 470 for cheap. It's very fast, especially when OCed. The heat and power output don't really matter much to me either.
Some people might actually go Bulldozer because it can actually be faster than SB for encoding, for example. Sure, more heat, power, etc but if they primarily encode then it'd benefit them.

According to Anandtech's testing, the GTX 560 Ti 448 core at 732MHz is MUCH slower than the 5970 -- it appears, on average, to be between 25 and 35% slower. Say it's 25% slower on average. Your 470 is clocked roughly 13% higher than that. So you still have the 5970 being 12% faster at minimum. I'm not aware of any new technology in the 5xx series that boosts per-core and/or per-clock performance, but if there is, that is further proof for my argument. Likewise I'm not sure if any feature of the GTX 470 is absent in the GTX 560 Ti 448 core; if there is then please let me know and I'll retract and shut up.

Considering the GTX 560 Ti 448 is quite a recent release, I'm pretty sure these great drivers you're talking about had already been released -- after all, I could've easily used the fact that the 512-core GTX 580 at 772MHz is slower than the 5970 in Anand's testing as proof.

I actually meant to write HD6970, sorry about that. The GTX 470 can edge out a GTX 570 when its overclocked (StarYoshi's review proves it) and the GTX 570 is neck and neck with the HD6970 generally.

The 470 has more memory bandwidth, and is clocked at 822Mhz to begin with, to be roughly equal to the GTX 470 @ 607Mhz. My GTX 470 @ 822Mhz would destroy a 560Ti, even 700Mhz would put it equal. If I got my watercooling going on the GPU (I have everything I need except the fittings and time) then I could hit some nice clocks on my 470.
    
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post #89 of 116
*looks around at heated fanboy discussion* ph34r-smiley.gif

Well if you ask me, the only thing this changes is that my cards are no longer the latest and greatest. sad-smiley-002.gif

Not like it isn't easy to max out these console port games these days anyway.
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Black Hole
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post #90 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Uh, the original Xbox and PS3 use nVidia chips.
But the original Xbox was before huge monster GPUs ever existed, and the PS3 uses a 7000 series GPU, which is pretty much Nvidia's least power-hungry architecture in recent history - it was less than both the 5000 and 6000 series, and everything after it has been worse efficiency-wise (especially everything that's the 8000 series and later).
Edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 - 1/7/12 at 9:09pm
 
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HTPC
(14 items)
 
File server
(22 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Pentium G3258 @ 4.6GHz/1.281v (rock-solid stable) MSI Z97 PC Mate [media & productivity] Intel HD graphics [games] Diamond Radeon HD5870 1GB 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
4x4GB Corsair Vengance DDR3 @ 1800MHz 1.504v Crucial M500 480GB SSD RamDisk - adaptive 10GB volatile scratch LG Blu-ray drive 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
Cooler Master X6 Elite with stock fan removed CPU fan: 120mm Arctic F12 PWM @ ~300rpm PSU fan: 120mm Kingwin case fan via PSU fan plug Windows 7 Ultimate - 64bit SP1 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
E772p CRT (Trinitron) @ 79-94hz 1152x864/1280x720 PS/2 Microsoft Internet Keyboard (replaced cord) Antec EA-380D (380w) with stock fan removed Logitech MX510 (blue) with replaced USB cord 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
White Monoprice 9963 IEM headphones [Left ear] LostEarBuds medium single-flange tip [Right ear] Unknown medium single-flange tip Asus Xonar DS 
AudioAudioAudio
Dual SOIC LME49990 DIP8 op amp [music] Foobar2000 + Xonar ASIO driver [games & movies] Razer Synapse 7.1ch to binaural 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core 2 Duo (Penryn) T8300 @ 2.4GHz Dell Studio 1535 Intel 965GMA 2GB 667MHz Samsung DDR2 
RAMHard DriveOSMonitor
1GB 667MHz Samsung DDR2 60GB Corsair Force 3 SSD Windows 7 64bit SP1 Toshiba 39L1350U HDTV 
KeyboardPowerMouseMouse Pad
Some USB wireless Logitech keyboard Rocketfish universial power adapter (my cousin's) Some USB wireless Logitech mouse couch 
AudioAudio
HDMI audio-out to HDTV HDTV optical-out to Denon AVR-200 reciever 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Pentium 3 @ 667MHz Some Intel mobo ATI Rage 128 AGP 32MB 2x256MB DDR1 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1GB Sandisk CF card - boot drive Western Digital Caviar SE - 320GB IDE Maxtor - 200GB IDE RamDisk - adaptive 64MB viotle scratch 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Athlon XP 2000+ Palomino stock heatsink w/ copp... Windows 2000 Pro SP4 None - VNC is used instead Bestec ATX-250-12Z 
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Some super-basic beige case Intel PCI ethernet card Linksys PCI ethernet card 
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