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{Seronx}[Answered] GlobalFoundries 28nm-SHP is not FD-SOI. - Page 3

post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

That is part of Intel's bulk CMOS technology. Poorer temperature tolerances.
On the other way, Intel's technology is AGES ahead of GloFo, like it or not, in terms of manufacturing.

Yet they aren't producing anything to beat GlobalFoundries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

If Bulldozer's process wasn't as leaky it'd probably be able to be clocked at 4.5GHz from factory. It wouldn't be able to achieve as fast clockspeeds under LN2, that's for sure. But that wouldn't matter in the race against Intel. Stock performance would.

Bulldozer's clock rate isn't because of how leaky it is...(it isn't leaky it is power hungry and power hunger leads to more heat which then makes more power consumption LHe and LN2 @ 7.4GHz on all cores shows scalability)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Once again, you say it's more advanced than Intel's process. Yeah, it is. In theory. Practically, the final silicon (not the architecture) is WAY worse than what Intel has to offer.
TSMC's 28nm does pretty fine AFAIK.
If they can fix their errors and get a decent 28nm, Steamroller might prove to be an interesting product.

AMD's architecture for most part is more advanced...

An AMD core isn't a one unit that does Integer and Floating Point it is two units one does integer and one does floating point and now with Bulldozer they evolved that design to the 2nd Step...Two Units that do Integer and one unit that does Floating Point
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstoler View Post

You are talking about how bulldozer scales better going up in frequency?

The efficiency is after 5.4GHz you can't overclock it anymore...or it gets very hard to overclock it... Bulldozer can achieve 6GHz with 1.65volts and live for 3 years(depends on where the silicon was on the wafer) you will need a home-made H20 setup with chilled water to do 6GHz
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstoler View Post

I did notice that SB are great at stock and even better at higher clocks but Bulldozer is "ok" at stock and it REALLY improves as the clocks go up with it. making it's scalability (is this a word? lol) better than sandy bridge. 6ghz piledriver cores anyone?!?

Piledriver will be relatively the same what Piledriver does is improve the stage pipeline and fixes inconsistencies where Steamroller will probably add AVX2 making it a change in the architecture

Bulldozer -> Improved Bulldozer(Piledriver) -> Steamroller -> Improved Steamroller(Excavator)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

This was AMD's goal.
But with those fat-slowass caches, no way in earth that can be done in an efficient manner.

AMD's Goal was 3.5GHz
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISSSC2011 
In addition, Bulldozer core operating voltage will be set between 0.8v-1.3v, and can run over 3.5GHz frequency, and 8MB L3 cache is 2MB from 4 independent group composed of sub-cache.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD 
"This micro-architecture improves performance and frequency while reducing area and power over a previous AMD x86-64 CPU in the same process. The design reduces the number of gates/cycle relative to prior designs, achieving 3.5GHz+ operation," the claim by AMD reads.

The only one that didn't beat it's design point was Llano but A8-3870K is right on the design point and Bulldozer has the FX-8150 and the FX-6200 beyond the design point(and the theoretical FX-4150)

Bulldozer = 3.5GHz and Higher on high-end SKUs
Llano = 3.0GHz and Higher on high-end SKUs
Edited by Seronx - 1/7/12 at 5:32pm
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post #22 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

Bulldozer's clock rate isn't because of how leaky it is...(it isn't leaky it is power hungry and power hunger leads to more heat which then makes more power consumption LHe and LN2 @ 7.4GHz on all cores shows scalability)


I won't reply the whole thing (don't have the time nor the predisposition), but this part caught my interest.


Bulldozer's clock rate is low because it is leaky. If it's leaky, it can withstand higher voltages, but it also needs higher voltages to function. While this is not a problem under extreme cool situations, it is at ambient temperatures.

So yes, bulldozer silicon being leaky IS the major cause to the low clock speeds.
Edited by Artikbot - 1/8/12 at 6:23am
   
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post #23 of 31
interesting thread, thanks to everyone for enlightening and forcing my brain to understand a little bit more about our technology smile.gif
post #24 of 31
Thread Starter 
I found the image for the 28nm CPUs

451

http://www.hp-sp.ch/events/techcircle/pastEvents/server_storage_juni2011/images/hp_techcircle_bern_amd_part.pdf

Dublin and Macau for now are 28nm-SHP processors in this picture^
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post #25 of 31
It remains to be seen what GloFo and TSMC will produce in the coming year(s).

You can't just take a GloFo design and have TSMC produce it. It takes a year to re-engineer it to be run on a different process. GloFo has fortunately made great stides in the last 45 days. TSMC was having their own issues with their 28nm processes and didn't start getting it sorted out until Nov. 2011. So GloFo is only a month or so behind TSMC in sorting their 32nm for much better yields. If it was easy anyone could do it but it isn't. IBM is actually working with GloFo and having them produce 32nm chips for their customers at the moment.
post #26 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4ME View Post

It remains to be seen what GloFo and TSMC will produce in the coming year(s).
You can't just take a GloFo design and have TSMC produce it. It takes a year to re-engineer it to be run on a different process. GloFo has fortunately made great stides in the last 45 days. TSMC was having their own issues with their 28nm processes and didn't start getting it sorted out until Nov. 2011. So GloFo is only a month or so behind TSMC in sorting their 32nm for much better yields. If it was easy anyone could do it but it isn't. IBM is actually working with GloFo and having them produce 32nm chips for their customers at the moment.

28nm-SHP isn't TSMC it is only GlobalFoundries and STMicroelectronics

TSMC doesn't have plans for Fully Depleted Silicon on Insulator with Ultra Thin Buried Oxide on a 28nm node
Only GlobalFoundries and STMicroelectronics because of their IBM connections

28nm FD-SOI w/ BOX HKMG e-SiGe uses the same work tools as 32nm as 32nm/28nm are in the same area
^-- try saying that with a straight face

Twenty-Eight Nanometer Fully Depleted Silicon on Insulator with Ultra Thin Buried Oxide and with High-k Metal Gates and with embedded Silicon Germanium and with Low-k dialectics <-- DANG

What 32nm Bulldozer already has is bold
What 32nm Bulldozer doesn't have is underlined

Twenty-Eight Nanometer Fully Depleted Silicon on Insulator with Ultra Thin Buried Oxide and with High-k Metal Gates and with embedded Silicon Germanium and with Low-k dialectics

UT Box shrinks the length of the node
28nm shrinks the height of the node
v^ might have gotten these backwords this is an edit without change the above or below text
FD-SOI shrinks the width of the node

with HKMG/LKDE/eSIGE all improving performance of the node
Edited by Seronx - 1/20/12 at 8:39pm
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post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstoler View Post

You are talking about how bulldozer scales better going up in frequency? I did notice that SB are great at stock and even better at higher clocks but Bulldozer is "ok" at stock and it REALLY improves as the clocks go up with it. making it's scalability (is this a word? lol) better than sandy bridge. 6ghz piledriver cores anyone?!?


Are you joking? You think as clock speed goes up, performance goes up exponentially? Ceteris paribus, as clock speed goes up performance goes up linearly.

BD is able to clock high due to the deep pipelines, just like 90nm Prescott Pentium 4s that were able to overclock to 7GHz+ on LN2. They forewent efficiency for high clock speeds.

Even at ultra high clock speeds, Sandy Bridge will always have the performance and efficiency.
Edited by Clairvoyant129 - 1/20/12 at 8:51pm
 
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post #28 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clairvoyant129 View Post

Destoler, you think as clock speed goes up, performance goes up exponentially? Ceteris paribus, as clock speed goes up performance goes up linearly.
BD is able to clock high due to the deep pipelines, just like 90nm Prescott Pentium 4s that were able to overclock to 7GHz+ on LN2. They forewent efficiency for high clock speeds.

Bulldozer doesn't have deep pipelines it is 15 for the Integer Portion and 20 for the Floating Point Portion

Also clock speed and performance is mostly linear which you said

but the other metric is Logic power consumption which is like (A+B)² I totally forgot what the A and B are or if it was A + B²
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post #29 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

28nm-SHP isn't TSMC it is only GlobalFoundries and STMicroelectronics
SNIP

You misunderstand... I wasn't talking about 28nm GloFo. I was stating that both companies had issues in their transisions and you can't just take one design and go to another design/company to have it produce without re-engineering the original design, which can take up to a year. Some folks mistakenly think you can just shift from having GloFo producing FX and it's successors, to TSMC, which you can't.
post #30 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clairvoyant129 View Post

Even at ultra high clock speeds, Sandy Bridge will always have the performance and efficiency.

Actually Bulldozer beats Sandy Bridge in every benchmark that uses Interger forms of SSE4 - SSE5 -> AVX near the same clock rate(+300MHz)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4ME View Post

You misunderstand... I wasn't talking about 28nm GloFo. I was stating that both companies had issues in their transitions and you can't just take one design and go to another design/company to have it produce.

28nm-SHP will be finished in 2012 these CPUs are probably going to come out Q2-Q4 2013 (There is enough time)

32nm tape out for Bulldozer happened in Q3 2010
32nm tape out of Trinity/Viperfish happened in H1 2011 or there about
28nm tape out for Steamroller based CPUs will most likely go around H2 2012

and since 32nm tools = 28nm tools in this case it is cost effective

~20+% more density ~15+% more performance <-- so far what the PDFs say about 28nm blah blah blah

Excavator is most likely also going to be 28nm...since

20nm-SHP which will be 2x more dense and 15-25% more performance than 28nm-SHP and will be made in 2014 which will not be enough time for Excavator

This could explain this
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20111216103629_AMD_Improvements_of_Next_Generation_Process_Technologies_Start_to_Wane.html

I couldn't find the PDF...I'll find it later
Edited by Seronx - 1/20/12 at 9:18pm
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