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[HH] AMD Fusion APU and Graphics Update: Trinity - Page 6

post #51 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

Seriously it's so annoying seeing everyone speculate about Piledriver and desktop Trinity. This article is about 17W Trinity for netbooks/ultraportables.
So let's just assume it's a tweak of Llano that uses 17W instead of comparing to Brazos/Bobcat.
First, Llano is 32nm. Trinity is 32nm. The current 35W Llano uses a 400 SP GPU. Now, 17W Trinity might be around 240 SP's at best. No way you're squeezing 400 SP's in it, (minimum you'd need to get a 50% GPU gain over 35W Llano - and that's asuming 20% gain from faster RAM, 10% from VLIW4, and 30% magic pulled from thin air).
Realistically, the CPU gain will be pretty small over Llano, not that anyone cares. What you guys are assuming is Trinity will have a GPU with over twice the performance per watt, on the same process. This is just ridiculous.

Llano uses Athlon cores. Trinity uses the MUCH more power efficient Bulldozer cores.

Llano uses VLIW4-derivated graphics. Trinity uses VLIW5-derivated graphics.

The part of Trinity die covered by the CPU is smaller than the one covered in Llano. That leaves more room for the GPU.

Let's assume Bulldozer cores are 20% more efficient power wise. Now let's take that the process itself is more advanced. That gives us even better efficiency, but I'll be skeptic. Another 5%. Now remember that VLIW5 is certainly more efficient than VLIW4. Let's say, 15% more efficient (which is realistic and actually a bit pessimistic if you compare power consumption in 5870 vs 6870). That yields a final 40% increase in overall efficiency.

So, you've cut power almost in half. Let's round it to 25W, to be even more pessimistic.


That is, assuming only efficiencies in the process.


You can still figure out that VLIW5 shaders are certainly stronger than VLIW4s, that lets you cut shader count. If you cut it from 400 to 300, you remove 1/4 of the produced heat and still manage to squeeze a 15% of performance over the current generation. Which is possible if silicon improvements are done alongside to the architectural improvements. A 25% less power is cutting around 7W. Okay, there you go. 17W TDP and still manage to squeeze a 15% increase in GPU power. Assuming the CPU keeps the same performance, that is.


All the above was obviously based on mere speculation and by looking at reviews that took into account the power consumption aspect of the components; so don't take it too seriously.
   
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post #52 of 75
Mother of god. These vs Ivy Bridge. I'd like to see a good fight. This is definitely worth waiting for. Was going to get SB mobile but now, this...just...wow.
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post #53 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Trinity uses...Bulldozer cores
Just want to remind you, this doesn't use Bulldozer, but Piledriver. Sure it's based on the same architecture, but improvements are improvements, and Bulldozer could certainly use some. thumb.gif
Edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 - 1/11/12 at 5:10pm
 
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post #54 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendo Maniac 64 View Post

Just want to remind you, this doesn't use Bulldozer, but Piledriver. Sure it's based on the same architecture, but improvements are improvements, and Bulldozer could certainly use some. thumb.gif

So Piledriver does have hope. Yay.
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post #55 of 75
At 17W? Incredible. Hopefully the performance will actually be there when these are in the hands of consumers. Also, considering that the CPU portion of this is probably only generating <10W of heat, perhaps the higher-binned Piledrivers will have quite the overclocking potential...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile View Post

Intel dropped TDP by dropping clocks. Why can't AMD?
This isn't bobcat based (28nm bobcats are DOA). This also isn't 28nm (all bulldozer and phenom are full-node chips, so the next shrink is 22nm in a year or two).
If piledriver can fix the problems with bulldozer, then this is very possible. Fixing branch prediction (just to be on par with Phenom II) should net 5-15% performance improvement. Fixing decoder width (probably 5-6 units instead of 4) would net another gain of 5-20% (depends on how instruction starved the system is). Better fabs could net 5-30% increase due to reducing cache latency and could net even more through higher turbo clocks. I'm not that optimistic, but I am interested.
A more efficient die layout that borrows some cues from GCN combined with more 32nm full-node optimizations could net huge power savings for the GPU. Switching to VLIW4 gives 10+% improvement per shader. If fabs allow a higher clockspeed, then keeping the 400 shaders could be possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Llano uses Athlon cores. Trinity uses the MUCH more power efficient Bulldozer cores.
Llano uses VLIW4-derivated graphics. Trinity uses VLIW5-derivated graphics.
The part of Trinity die covered by the CPU is smaller than the one covered in Llano. That leaves more room for the GPU.
Let's assume Bulldozer cores are 20% more efficient power wise. Now let's take that the process itself is more advanced. That gives us even better efficiency, but I'll be skeptic. Another 5%. Now remember that VLIW5 is certainly more efficient than VLIW4. Let's say, 15% more efficient (which is realistic and actually a bit pessimistic if you compare power consumption in 5870 vs 6870). That yields a final 40% increase in overall efficiency.
So, you've cut power almost in half. Let's round it to 25W, to be even more pessimistic.
That is, assuming only efficiencies in the process.
You can still figure out that VLIW5 shaders are certainly stronger than VLIW4s, that lets you cut shader count. If you cut it from 400 to 300, you remove 1/4 of the produced heat and still manage to squeeze a 15% of performance over the current generation. Which is possible if silicon improvements are done alongside to the architectural improvements. A 25% less power is cutting around 7W. Okay, there you go. 17W TDP and still manage to squeeze a 15% increase in GPU power. Assuming the CPU keeps the same performance, that is.
All the above was obviously based on mere speculation and by looking at reviews that took into account the power consumption aspect of the components; so don't take it too seriously.

Possible. The guy in the video did say a 50% increase in "compute performance" over 35W Llano, and even after BD I'd still take statistics from AMD over some (possibly butthurt) OCN user.

Also take into account that GloFo's 32nm process supposedly sucks ATM, especially when it comes to GPUs. If they improve their fab, transistors can be more densely packed on a die and current leakage can be reduced, which results in more performance, less heat, and less power consumption.
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post #56 of 75
Art, sounds "plausible", except that you're double-counting. Split your argument into CPU-side, and then GPU side. For example, 15% more efficient CPU + 15% more efficient GPU = 15% more efficient APU. It's not 30% more efficient.

Usario, AMD is still going to make 35W Trinity APUs. They'd be foolish not to, since they're still years behind Intel in CPU speed. So, perhaps you're reading too much into AMD's "50%" number. Lastly, there will be desktop Trinity. So if AMD really is doing 50% gain at half the TDP, there's no reason that won't hold for desktop Trinity. Meaning either 45W APUs faster than the current line, or 95W APUs that are three times as fast as the current 95W Llano APUs.

So, if AMD really had something with triple the performance/watt, why wouldn't they just say Trinity will have a 200% ( = 3 times) faster GPU, or at least that it's 50% faster with half the TDP? All I'm saying, don't get your hopes up. How would AMD just out of nowhere triple the performance/watt in 1 year?
Edited by jrbroad77 - 1/11/12 at 5:44pm
 
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post #57 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Llano uses Athlon cores. Trinity uses the MUCH more power efficient Bulldozer cores.
Llano uses VLIW4-derivated graphics. Trinity uses VLIW5-derivated graphics.
The part of Trinity die covered by the CPU is smaller than the one covered in Llano. That leaves more room for the GPU.
Let's assume Bulldozer cores are 20% more efficient power wise. Now let's take that the process itself is more advanced. That gives us even better efficiency, but I'll be skeptic. Another 5%. Now remember that VLIW5 is certainly more efficient than VLIW4. Let's say, 15% more efficient (which is realistic and actually a bit pessimistic if you compare power consumption in 5870 vs 6870). That yields a final 40% increase in overall efficiency.
So, you've cut power almost in half. Let's round it to 25W, to be even more pessimistic.
That is, assuming only efficiencies in the process.
You can still figure out that VLIW5 shaders are certainly stronger than VLIW4s, that lets you cut shader count. If you cut it from 400 to 300, you remove 1/4 of the produced heat and still manage to squeeze a 15% of performance over the current generation. Which is possible if silicon improvements are done alongside to the architectural improvements. A 25% less power is cutting around 7W. Okay, there you go. 17W TDP and still manage to squeeze a 15% increase in GPU power. Assuming the CPU keeps the same performance, that is.
All the above was obviously based on mere speculation and by looking at reviews that took into account the power consumption aspect of the components; so don't take it too seriously.

A quick point of clarification: Trinity actually uses VLIW4, instead of the older VLIW5.
post #58 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

What you guys are assuming is Trinity will have a GPU with over twice the performance per watt, on the same process. This is just ridiculous.

the 50% improvement is;

~20% on x86 with MEDIA WORKLOADS (not superpi, 3dmark, or other bentmarks..)

~30% on the GPU compared with Llano GPU

389
post #59 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuell View Post

Only these Trinity APU's are not replacing the E series... Just because power efficiency is down to that level, doesn't mean they are talking about that. It's a 25%/50% improvement over the llano's they will be replacing, which is very exciting.
I wonder if they have pushed the envelope further on the power of the card it can crossfire with. I'm excited for Desktop Piledriver... maybe AMD just had a bunch of bad luck with BD after all, and hopefully the design is actually good... Here's hoping tongue.gif

So you think AMD dropped the TDP from 35W to 17W and somehow they can squeeze 25% more performance on CPU (that would mean at least 1.9ghz base clock, on a 17W quad)., and 50% over 6620G, which has 400 SPs. Suppose DDR3 1866 can give 20% more performance over 1333. That still means they need 480 SPs. All that in 17W? On what process size? Llano APU is already 32nm, and 28nm is only a 30% shrink.

Note AMD's current 17W APU: 1.6ghz dual-core, 80 SPs. Please teach us how AMD will increase the SP count 6-fold with a 30% more efficient process.

My math: 30% shrink = at best 50% performance gain at the same TDP. Your math: ??????

You're forgetting the current SPs are VLIW5 whereas these are VLIW4, so you don't need 480 SPs.

And the 25%/50% may actually be for 35w products, not 17w.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

Seriously it's so annoying seeing everyone speculate about Piledriver and desktop Trinity. This article is about 17W Trinity for netbooks/ultraportables.
So let's just assume it's a tweak of Llano that uses 17W instead of comparing to Brazos/Bobcat.
First, Llano is 32nm. Trinity is 32nm. The current 35W Llano uses a 400 SP GPU. Now, 17W Trinity might be around 240 SP's at best. No way you're squeezing 400 SP's in it, (minimum you'd need to get a 50% GPU gain over 35W Llano - and that's asuming 20% gain from faster RAM, 10% from VLIW4, and 30% magic pulled from thin air).
Realistically, the CPU gain will be pretty small over Llano, not that anyone cares. What you guys are assuming is Trinity will have a GPU with over twice the performance per watt, on the same process. This is just ridiculous.

Llano uses Athlon cores. Trinity uses the MUCH more power efficient Bulldozer cores.

Llano uses VLIW4-derivated graphics. Trinity uses VLIW5-derivated graphics.

The part of Trinity die covered by the CPU is smaller than the one covered in Llano. That leaves more room for the GPU.

Let's assume Bulldozer cores are 20% more efficient power wise. Now let's take that the process itself is more advanced. That gives us even better efficiency, but I'll be skeptic. Another 5%. Now remember that VLIW5 is certainly more efficient than VLIW4. Let's say, 15% more efficient (which is realistic and actually a bit pessimistic if you compare power consumption in 5870 vs 6870). That yields a final 40% increase in overall efficiency.

So, you've cut power almost in half. Let's round it to 25W, to be even more pessimistic.


That is, assuming only efficiencies in the process.


You can still figure out that VLIW5 shaders are certainly stronger than VLIW4s, that lets you cut shader count. If you cut it from 400 to 300, you remove 1/4 of the produced heat and still manage to squeeze a 15% of performance over the current generation. Which is possible if silicon improvements are done alongside to the architectural improvements. A 25% less power is cutting around 7W. Okay, there you go. 17W TDP and still manage to squeeze a 15% increase in GPU power. Assuming the CPU keeps the same performance, that is.


All the above was obviously based on mere speculation and by looking at reviews that took into account the power consumption aspect of the components; so don't take it too seriously.

There's also the fact that the 32nm node has improved dramatically since Llano first came out.

The 25% CPU increase makes me happy, even if it is versus Zacate. A 17w Piledriver will obviously have very low clocks and (maybe) stuff cut out...If it scales up well then desktop Piledriver would be good too.
    
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturin View Post

<----sits and waits. I ain't believing anything till the public gets the goods. Period.

Interesting though.

The surprise was awesome. I would have been fully satisfied if he was able to follow the wires back to the monitor.

Skeptical.

battery.gif

They better not pull a VLC on us...rolleyes.gif

....or any other format.redface.gif
    
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [HH] AMD Fusion APU and Graphics Update: Trinity