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[HH] AMD Fusion APU and Graphics Update: Trinity - Page 7

post #61 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

Art, sounds "plausible", except that you're double-counting. Split your argument into CPU-side, and then GPU side. For example, 15% more efficient CPU + 15% more efficient GPU = 15% more efficient APU. It's not 30% more efficient.
Usario, AMD is still going to make 35W Trinity APUs. They'd be foolish not to, since they're still years behind Intel in CPU speed. So, perhaps you're reading too much into AMD's "50%" number. Lastly, there will be desktop Trinity. So if AMD really is doing 50% gain at half the TDP, there's no reason that won't hold for desktop Trinity. Meaning either 45W APUs faster than the current line, or 95W APUs that are three times as fast as the current 95W Llano APUs.
So, if AMD really had something with triple the performance/watt, why wouldn't they just say Trinity will have a 200% ( = 3 times) faster GPU, or at least that it's 50% faster with half the TDP? All I'm saying, don't get your hopes up. How would AMD just out of nowhere triple the performance/watt in 1 year?

Did I say they'd stop making 35W APUs?

For the record, the "100W" TDP APUs actually generate less than 100W of heat; when it comes to those it's more of a worst case scenario to reduce liability if they end up shipping a few crap APUs so they can maximize yield whereas with low-wattage chips they're going to try to market the lowest number possible and bin them much higher.

Don't forget that performance increases do not scale linearly with TDP. If they can achieve a 50% boost with half the TDP, that does not mean they can double performance with the same TDP and it certainly does not mean they can quadruple performance with twice the TDP.

About the percentages, no one knows what the hell AMD is talking about. Considering that the video is marketing Trinity's ability to run games and encode video at the same time, it's likely that's a general percentage -- either CPU and GPU combined (20% for CPU + 30% for GPU) or the average between CPU and GPU (25% for CPU + 75% for GPU). I can't say for sure. Do I work for AMD?

The guy in the video DID say that the chip in the demo provides 50% more "compute performance" (this is why I'm assuming he's talking about CPU + GPU here -- compute performance includes the CPU and the GPU) with half the TDP of Llano.
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post #62 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

Seriously it's so annoying seeing everyone speculate about Piledriver and desktop Trinity. This article is about 17W Trinity for netbooks/ultraportables.
So let's just assume it's a tweak of Llano that uses 17W instead of comparing to Brazos/Bobcat.
First, Llano is 32nm. Trinity is 32nm. The current 35W Llano uses a 400 SP GPU. Now, 17W Trinity might be around 240 SP's at best. No way you're squeezing 400 SP's in it, (minimum you'd need to get a 50% GPU gain over 35W Llano - and that's asuming 20% gain from faster RAM, 10% from VLIW4, and 30% magic pulled from thin air).
Realistically, the CPU gain will be pretty small over Llano, not that anyone cares. What you guys are assuming is Trinity will have a GPU with over twice the performance per watt, on the same process. This is just ridiculous.

The problems I stated that Bulldozer has are real. The low end delta that I gave for improvement isn't that high (15%), so I don't see it as unreasonable. Further, AMD has had months if not years to work on piledriver. You don't think that they were completely surprised by bulldozer performance do you? The only surprises for them were the ones caused by bad GF fabs which trashed cache latencies, clockspeeds, and power consumption.

Now let's look at current Llanos parts. AMD makes them two ways: 35w and 45w. Based on this, AMD's goal is to beat it's 35nm parts. PCper writes that AMD stated that CPU performance would increase by 25% and GPU performance by 50%. What can a 35w Llanos do? The A3500m quad-core offers 1.5-2.4GHz CPU speed and 400 shaders @ 444MHz (355.2 GFLOPS). I won't comment on GPU as I (and others) already have.

The current bulldozer is about the same speed per clock as Llanos (for those who talk about it being slower, AMD claims that they targeted Phenom II IPC when designing bulldozer. BD was ~8% slower than Thuban, but BD IPC will be about the same as Thuban after Windows finally gets a hotfix, thus making AMD correct). Based on this, There are three other facts. The first is that AMD is increasing IPC in piledriver. Intel has made >20% IPC improvements, so there's no reason to believe that AMD can't (especially with such obvious bottlenecks). The second is that even though AMD aims for linear clockspeed performance scaling (and it seems to have mostly achieved this goal; something that even the new Intel architectures don't do), AMD isn't likely to increase speeds because increasing speed is the one sure ticket to higher TDPs. The third and final point is that the new chip is dual-core with two additional integer cores that can only achieve 80% performance at best. In the previous architecture, the additional cores only increased performance (relative to the 6-core thuban) by 50% (or each module being equal to about one and a half real cores). If scaling is similar, then AMD must increase the performance of each of the two modules by about 60% to achieve a 25% overall performance increase.

A little bit of circumstantial evidence. Apple was testing AMD Trinity chips and (according to leaks) only turned them down because of quantity issues. The first objection to this is that "Apple was just using AMD to threaten Intel". This isn't logical. Intel has a fairly good idea of what is on the AMD horizon (just as AMD does of Intel). With Apple selling so many Macbook Airs, Apple needed a LP chip to "threaten" Intel with, thus showing that AMD had a LP chip available. Next, AMD must be competitive (Apple couldn't afford to regress very much on the CPU side of things). Apple can't "threaten" Intel by telling them "If you don't lower your prices, We're going to go use an inferior chip." Thus we can deduce that Trinity is somewhere close to Intel's chips (at least a hell of a lot closer than they are now).

Now to the objection that "you can't make a chip with twice the performance on the same fab process." Two answers. The first is that Intel's 32 chips are much better (and a bit smaller) on the same fab, why can't AMD make chips that are more efficient and maybe catch up to Intel? The second answer is that the fab process is "the same", but the quality of the fab is much better helping with things such as leakage (lower leakage means that the chips can achieve higher performance with the same power usage).

With your objections out of the way, What is the "best case"? 60% better performance per module can come in four ways: fab-related improvements, higher IPC, better than 50% usage of secondary integer cores, or higher clockspeed. AMD certainly didn't achieve 60% better IPC, so at least part of the speedup is due to higher clocks (but not too much as higher clocks would kill the low TDP).

Adding those extra decoders I spoke of in a previous post could remove a bottleneck and unlock part of the remaining potential of the secondary integer cores (to move from 50% performance to 80%). Just achieving a part of that would go a long way toward our 60%. Increasing branch prediction (BD prediction is lousy as Anand's review showed) and decreasing pipeline flushing would increase IPC by quite a lot. Finally, fixing the fabs would allow for lower latencies on L1, 2, and 3 caches (L1 especially needs it as they are 25% slower than Thuban).

TL;DR

AMD making a much better chip is possible. A new architecture (with months/years of improvement over BD) and MUCH better fabs (though still in need of improvements) can make large improvements possible without a die shrink.
Edited by hajile - 1/11/12 at 9:06pm
post #63 of 75
I just wish AMD has done a good job on this one.But historically ,AMD has this tendency to dissapoint at the most important junction.And then also it is only battle half won.If the Trinity is as good as it seems to be,then AMD has to get support from OEM builders who unfortunately tends to lean on to the Blue side almost all the time.
This time my fingers are really crossed!!
post #64 of 75
AMD marketing slides are very misleading. People should take every word from AMD with a gain of salt

370
post #65 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendo Maniac 64 View Post

Just want to remind you, this doesn't use Bulldozer, but Piledriver. Sure it's based on the same architecture, but improvements are improvements, and Bulldozer could certainly use some. thumb.gif

Yeah well, you understood the fact that it uses Bulldozer-based cores. Piledriver is an improvement above Bulldozer tongue.gif
   
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post #66 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstoler View Post

Oh sweet jesus. AMD is going to do BIG things this year just watch. So awesome I love the underdog. Good find man! +1

Trinity:
  • Eyefinity
  • 2133Mhz Ram speeds
  • Up to 3.8Ghz core clock
  • Radeon 6900 Graphics
  • 17 Watts
  • PileDriver Cores

An APU that can do this. Some of it is better than my system and it would be considered a mid-high end gaming desktop.

AMD has Intel by the gonads when it comes to APU's and their graphics power. This is just absurd. AMD is advancing so much right now, I better sell my system before its worth nothing.

120
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post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePath View Post

AMD marketing slides are very misleading. People should take every word from AMD with a gain of salt
370

There is a difference between what someone says and what someone shows you. You should take any companys word with a grain of salt.

But when amd shows a notebook that is powering 3 monitors, one with DX11 game running, another thats decoding, and the other that playing
youtube HD video, it doesnt matter what they say, their APU's right now are among the best
Edited by mikezachlowe2004 - 1/12/12 at 5:10pm
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post #68 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePath View Post

AMD marketing slides are very misleading. People should take every word from AMD with a gain of salt
370

That slide is from 2007; nice job cropping the date out
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post #69 of 75
That is news that I like to hear.
post #70 of 75
i got high hopes for Trinity it's looking like it'll be the platform to beat biggrin.gif im hoping that there would be a laptop with crossfire for a very fair price biggrin.gif
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