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post #541 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by wermad View Post

Fact is still, this just got big recently. Check out my mayhems vs feser thread and the Primochill tube was in great shape throughout a few months.

Exactly. Clouding of tubing has been always there, but not like I have seen in my own loop. I have had the rad for over 4 years, and the issue was only really noticeable when I used the Primochill LRT. Boom, instant (almost) clouding. There are probably several different issues, however, it is clear to me in my case. No issue, change tubing, issue begins. Its not rocket science.
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post #542 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Just make sure your Radiators are clear of Flux(vinegar flush) and I think you'll be fine. There could still be other issues but if your Rads are new or not very old, you'll want to make sure there is no residual Flux floating around in there to gunk your tubing up. I'm getting a used Radiator that seems to have a bit of residual flux, so I'll be doing the same thing to it even though I'm rolling with the PrimoChill White LRT. thumb.gif
Get that vinegar as hot as you can stand it, pour it in fit plugs onto the ports and give it a good shaking. Rinse and repeat. biggrin.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

Is vinegar a good idea for radiators, I wonder if rinsing would really prevent corrosion.

btw this is from guys flushing their car radiators:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showpost.php?s=dc371e3e150289d901b14f22c5925d36&p=3828492&postcount=14
Edited by MaFi0s0 - 4/20/12 at 5:53pm
post #543 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaFi0s0 View Post

Is vinegar a good idea for radiators, I wonder if rinsing would really prevent corrosion.
btw this is from guys flushing their car radiators:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showpost.php?s=dc371e3e150289d901b14f22c5925d36&p=3828492&postcount=14

To an extent . I used warm distilled vinegar 5% acidity for only 15 minutes then flushed for 4 days before testing. and then was many tests after.

You definitely want the vinegar out of the rad after.
   
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post #544 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Proton View Post

Exactly. Clouding of tubing has been always there, but not like I have seen in my own loop. I have had the rad for over 4 years, and the issue was only really noticeable when I used the Primochill LRT. Boom, instant (almost) clouding. There are probably several different issues, however, it is clear to me in my case. No issue, change tubing, issue begins. Its not rocket science.

Thank's that was very helpful .
   
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post #545 of 3087
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mybadomen View Post

Ok guys after all the testing i did and eliminating 1 thing at a time from the Loops and flushing the 4 Rads to death (3 different brand Rads)

Here are the results. I am making this short and sweet and will do a full write up on it later!

I discovered from my testing regardless if people want to debate it distilled water flushes did absolutely nothing at all!
Biocides containing Copper sulphate accelerated this problem but wasn't the problem. Nor kill coils.
Did a Vinegar flush immediately followed by many gallons and days of flushing with Steamed distilled water before starting new tests.
Tubing clouding or whitening whatever you would like to call it slowed down after the %5 acidity Distilled vinegar or below Flush followed by days of distilled water flushing.
But was still there Longest tubing lasted 4 days so every single test the tubing failed in 4 days or less running only distilled water and i went through Loads of distilled water and loads of tubing!

Here is what you all seen a million times before. And the whole thing i am trying to help solve which many just spit out BAD TUBING and call it a day without testing anything!
700
700
Looks very Familiar don't it? Well you can flush your rads to death with distilled and this is what you will still see. Believe me when i say if you knew haw many different times i changes water flushed changed rads you name it the results were always the same.(Photo's above)

Just so you all know when i did the Distilled water flushes not much came out of the rads. but when i did a quick Distilled Vinegar flush this is how pretty the stuff that looked came out. Remember these are brand new rads .Just out of the box and flushed for days with distilled water before trying the Vinegar flush!"" 4 Rads 2 used for roughly close to a year and other 2 brand new out of the box.Same results!""

and isn't that pretty :
700

So here is where the Last and final test comes in place which finally rules the tubing being the Problem out!

Very strange loop i had to set up to do this Test because the pump was to powerful .
Any way loop consisted of "Only" 1 Dual Loop Reservoir , 1 Pump , Primochill Clear Tubing and all matching Nickel Compression fittings and Steamed distilled water!
Nothing else at all ! i had to loop the tubing back through both sides of the reservoir because the pump was to powerful to go through only 1 loop with nothing else but tubing.
Here is setup (Funny looking thing but whats needed to accomplish this test:)
Only things used for this testing! Same batch of clear also. (I had tons of it)

700
First as i did every test i am flushing the Tubing itself to make sure it is clean.Straight into a bucket and dumped (Yes i spent a fortune in 2 months on distilled water just to try and help solve the issue)
700
Tubing day one.

700
Just showing had to loop through both Sides of the res to keep the pump from going to fast and sucking air: (Single loop)

700
Here is my funky test setup for now. All new testing equipment is one the way.
Tubing test Day 1 !
700
700
700
As you can see the Tubing is brand new and crystal clear at this point (still day 1)

700
Finally Day 4 !! " I Think i Found the Problem Dear Watson! "

Day 4 and not even the slightest amount of clouding.Tubing finally looks as it should .Just like it cam from the Package.By now every other test the Tubing showed slight clouding later on day one and by day 3 to 4 was total trash!

700
700
700
As you can see there is nothing wrong with this Tubing! It is as brand new and clear as the day i put it in the loop!
So finally Success ! After months are heartache and more testing then you could ever imaging !
So i found the Problem finally!
So now is where we ALL have to come together and find a solution.
Please if you come here to TROLL with no proof of testing i will ignore the post .But if you are here to actually try and help solve the issue my ears are wide open.
Tubing and water samples are being sent to the Labs for testing. The first lab testing is where we found biocide ,Flux and silver in the water!
Now these samples of tubing from the last few tests and the final one are going out to be tested also.
dont know about you guys but i want to know what that green stuff is.And i don't believe its the Flux any more i think its something else.
Sorry but i am not going to mention where the problem lies in this Post but if you look and read and think of the last thing eliminated from the loop it is pretty obvious where the problem Lies.
So please as a community with a passion for water cooling. Can someone with a chemistry background give some help from this pint on and tell us what is causing the tubing to could. And its not 1 brand of tubing doing it.Its just most people buy 1 certain brand because its nice tubing!
I am not being paid or endorsed in anyway to do this testing besides i received some free tubing scraps to test with.The rest was all done and paid for by me to help the community Solve this issue.Because i don't know about you guys but i want to run clear tubing again and not worry!
Hope this this answers allot of un answered questions and again this is only the problem now we need a solution.
So lets do it guys! I have all new test equipment on the way and will try any suggestions?
1 thing we need is a better way to get Rads completely clean inside.
2 another nice thing might be a preventive chemical that just prevents the reaction. ( I am no chemist i cant help with this part)
last thing we need is more people's input on a solution.
I have Photos of tons of the testing and can make a huge post somewhere but its rather pointless until we have a solution to fix it. Also 2 manufacturers are also working on a solution that i know of for sure right now.And thats the labs that test the tubing and water i send out.
I really hope this helps you guys get started on some solution.But for me this is super exciting news this is 100% Proof that we are looking for the problem in the wrong place. It is not the tubing that is the issue!
Take care and please read this whole thing through before commenting on it. ( Yes there is probably bad spelling and yes there is most definitely bad Grammar) But who cares . We now know the tubing stays clear until a certain piece of hardware is added to the loop!
Progress fells so good Finally! band.gif
Take care my Friends and talk soon
MybadOmen. thumb.gif




The green coloring is from copper acetate, which forms when oxidized copper reacts with acetic acid. That just means your radiator was highly oxidized and you just removed a good layer of material from it by the looks of things. Oxidized copper shouldn't be the problem. If its not too much to ask, you should repeat your tube test with a radiator attached, that way you'll be able to better pinpoint the source of the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaFi0s0 View Post

Is vinegar a good idea for radiators, I wonder if rinsing would really prevent corrosion.
btw this is from guys flushing their car radiators:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showpost.php?s=dc371e3e150289d901b14f22c5925d36&p=3828492&postcount=14

Most car radiators are made of aluminum, which is much less reactive. If you use vinegar to clean a rad, make sure work as quickly as possible, and only do it to new rads.
Edited by fuadm424 - 4/20/12 at 7:41pm
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post #546 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuadm424 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The green coloring is from copper acetate, which forms when oxidized copper reacts with acetic acid. That just means your radiator was highly oxidized and you just removed a good layer of material from it by the looks of things. Oxidized copper shouldn't be the problem. If its not too much to ask, you should repeat your tube test with a radiator attached, that way you'll be able to better pinpoint the source of the problem.
Most car radiators are made of aluminum, which is much less reactive. If you use vinegar to clean a rad, make sure work as quickly as possible, and only do it to new rads.

Yup i did work fast Put it in Warm not hot enough to hurt solder shook the rad .Let sit 15 minutes and dumped. I know the results of the rads hooked up.It clouds with any of the 3 brands.

Before and after Vinegar flush and results were better after the Vinegar flush but still clouded.

Not sure but it seem to me if it clouded only when Rads are hooked up the problem seems to lie somewhere there? And we are not talking 10 tests or so we are talking way over 50+ tests.
With both Brand new Rads and Old rads. 3 different brands. Also if it takes destroying a rad to figure this out then that's what i will do. I want Flexible Clear tubing back!

I have a great idea just waiting for new test equipment to arrive so i can start testing again.Remember i am doing my best i am testing plus trying to learn Corel draw from scratch and Building my Mass Effect 3 build which has a deadline. I am way beyond tired and doing everything i can to get this tubing to work. Its so obvious they didn't change the way tubing is made. And i think we waisted how many pages blaming tubing. I might have been convinced it was tubing if the last tests didn't show what it did.

I know its not the Nickel plating causing the issue because i tested with Nickel blocks in loop so only thing that the problem stopped was when the rads were removed from the loop.

I have a 4 new reservoirs coming 2 tube reservoirs , 2 Dual bay reservoirs , 2 D5 Pumps 100 feet of clear tubing bunch of new fittings (different kinds) also barbs and clamps Special PC only Distilled and tons of other stuff for building a test bench. Also am picking up a kit for PH level testing.

Once this stuff is here i will have more time to mess with it. But i am extremely busy with my build right now and was hoping someone else could go from the info i left for now.

Ok lets say it is the rads for some reason mysteriously all of a sudden reacting with the tubing and there is no way to stop that.Then how can we prevent the reaction? Since it doesn't cause harm to the system then all we need to do is figure a way to stop the white powder stuff. I wouldn't call it leeching because it is something on the tubing itself from what i have seen. White powder substance.

Blah to tired to continue writing & screen is getting blurry as hell. Will be back later if have any other info to input.

Most like wont see new equipment till next weak. Was shipped today.
   
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post #547 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuadm424 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mybadomen View Post

Ok guys after all the testing i did and eliminating 1 thing at a time from the Loops and flushing the 4 Rads to death (3 different brand Rads)

Here are the results. I am making this short and sweet and will do a full write up on it later!

I discovered from my testing regardless if people want to debate it distilled water flushes did absolutely nothing at all!
Biocides containing Copper sulphate accelerated this problem but wasn't the problem. Nor kill coils.
Did a Vinegar flush immediately followed by many gallons and days of flushing with Steamed distilled water before starting new tests.
Tubing clouding or whitening whatever you would like to call it slowed down after the %5 acidity Distilled vinegar or below Flush followed by days of distilled water flushing.
But was still there Longest tubing lasted 4 days so every single test the tubing failed in 4 days or less running only distilled water and i went through Loads of distilled water and loads of tubing!

Here is what you all seen a million times before. And the whole thing i am trying to help solve which many just spit out BAD TUBING and call it a day without testing anything!
700
700
Looks very Familiar don't it? Well you can flush your rads to death with distilled and this is what you will still see. Believe me when i say if you knew haw many different times i changes water flushed changed rads you name it the results were always the same.(Photo's above)

Just so you all know when i did the Distilled water flushes not much came out of the rads. but when i did a quick Distilled Vinegar flush this is how pretty the stuff that looked came out. Remember these are brand new rads .Just out of the box and flushed for days with distilled water before trying the Vinegar flush!"" 4 Rads 2 used for roughly close to a year and other 2 brand new out of the box.Same results!""

and isn't that pretty :
700

So here is where the Last and final test comes in place which finally rules the tubing being the Problem out!

Very strange loop i had to set up to do this Test because the pump was to powerful .
Any way loop consisted of "Only" 1 Dual Loop Reservoir , 1 Pump , Primochill Clear Tubing and all matching Nickel Compression fittings and Steamed distilled water!
Nothing else at all ! i had to loop the tubing back through both sides of the reservoir because the pump was to powerful to go through only 1 loop with nothing else but tubing.
Here is setup (Funny looking thing but whats needed to accomplish this test:)
Only things used for this testing! Same batch of clear also. (I had tons of it)

700
First as i did every test i am flushing the Tubing itself to make sure it is clean.Straight into a bucket and dumped (Yes i spent a fortune in 2 months on distilled water just to try and help solve the issue)
700
Tubing day one.

700
Just showing had to loop through both Sides of the res to keep the pump from going to fast and sucking air: (Single loop)

700
Here is my funky test setup for now. All new testing equipment is one the way.
Tubing test Day 1 !
700
700
700
As you can see the Tubing is brand new and crystal clear at this point (still day 1)

700
Finally Day 4 !! " I Think i Found the Problem Dear Watson! "

Day 4 and not even the slightest amount of clouding.Tubing finally looks as it should .Just like it cam from the Package.By now every other test the Tubing showed slight clouding later on day one and by day 3 to 4 was total trash!

700
700
700
As you can see there is nothing wrong with this Tubing! It is as brand new and clear as the day i put it in the loop!
So finally Success ! After months are heartache and more testing then you could ever imaging !
So i found the Problem finally!
So now is where we ALL have to come together and find a solution.
Please if you come here to TROLL with no proof of testing i will ignore the post .But if you are here to actually try and help solve the issue my ears are wide open.
Tubing and water samples are being sent to the Labs for testing. The first lab testing is where we found biocide ,Flux and silver in the water!
Now these samples of tubing from the last few tests and the final one are going out to be tested also.
dont know about you guys but i want to know what that green stuff is.And i don't believe its the Flux any more i think its something else.
Sorry but i am not going to mention where the problem lies in this Post but if you look and read and think of the last thing eliminated from the loop it is pretty obvious where the problem Lies.
So please as a community with a passion for water cooling. Can someone with a chemistry background give some help from this pint on and tell us what is causing the tubing to could. And its not 1 brand of tubing doing it.Its just most people buy 1 certain brand because its nice tubing!
I am not being paid or endorsed in anyway to do this testing besides i received some free tubing scraps to test with.The rest was all done and paid for by me to help the community Solve this issue.Because i don't know about you guys but i want to run clear tubing again and not worry!
Hope this this answers allot of un answered questions and again this is only the problem now we need a solution.
So lets do it guys! I have all new test equipment on the way and will try any suggestions?
1 thing we need is a better way to get Rads completely clean inside.
2 another nice thing might be a preventive chemical that just prevents the reaction. ( I am no chemist i cant help with this part)
last thing we need is more people's input on a solution.
I have Photos of tons of the testing and can make a huge post somewhere but its rather pointless until we have a solution to fix it. Also 2 manufacturers are also working on a solution that i know of for sure right now.And thats the labs that test the tubing and water i send out.
I really hope this helps you guys get started on some solution.But for me this is super exciting news this is 100% Proof that we are looking for the problem in the wrong place. It is not the tubing that is the issue!
Take care and please read this whole thing through before commenting on it. ( Yes there is probably bad spelling and yes there is most definitely bad Grammar) But who cares . We now know the tubing stays clear until a certain piece of hardware is added to the loop!
Progress fells so good Finally! band.gif
Take care my Friends and talk soon
MybadOmen. thumb.gif




The green coloring is from copper acetate, which forms when oxidized copper reacts with acetic acid. That just means your radiator was highly oxidized and you just removed a good layer of material from it by the looks of things. Oxidized copper shouldn't be the problem. If its not too much to ask, you should repeat your tube test with a radiator attached, that way you'll be able to better pinpoint the source of the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaFi0s0 View Post

Is vinegar a good idea for radiators, I wonder if rinsing would really prevent corrosion.
btw this is from guys flushing their car radiators:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showpost.php?s=dc371e3e150289d901b14f22c5925d36&p=3828492&postcount=14

Most car radiators are made of aluminum, which is much less reactive. If you use vinegar to clean a rad, make sure work as quickly as possible, and only do it to new rads.

Not sure it much matters (new/used) but I would agree as quickly as possible and give it a good rinsing afterward. You wouldn't want to put baking soda through it anyhow. The gent in the link even stated that there is salt/sodium in baking soda. Salt is just as corrosive if not more so than vinegar. Ever seen what salt does to car panels from winter roads or ocean communities? Can't believe this guy suggesting such an action while being critical of a vinegar flush. Also suggested to check the PH level of Tap? As cheap as distilled is? It's not like anyone is advocating running 100% vinegar. 5% or less is nothing and more than likely wouldn't harm anything unless it came into sustained contact with your pump. rolleyes.gif

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif
 
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post #548 of 3087
If this post has taught me anything is that distilled water and vinegar is a must for radiator flushing! We really appreciate all of your work mybadomen! thumb.gif
post #549 of 3087
Most weaker acids will do the same thing provided they are diluted to the same acidity. Flushing generously with warm water is the most important part, Green oxidation happens with acid solution if not cleaned carefully.Look at roofs of old buildings, oxidation from acid rain and naturally occurring corrosives turn them green. Diluted CLR would probably work as well, Have you tried to check for Lead content in solder that holds rad together. Lead may leach out a small amount causing a small amount of clouding as well, some countries have not embraced the use of lead-free solders yet. ps master plumber for 35 years and have designed and built hydronic systems with as many as 24 loops, just under 2 miles of 1/2 inch tubing. Best of luck with your testing and hope you get some good results ! bike.gifmario.gif
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post #550 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdesmo View Post

Most weaker acids will do the same thing provided they are diluted to the same acidity. Flushing generously with warm water is the most important part, Green oxidation happens with acid solution if not cleaned carefully.Look at roofs of old buildings, oxidation from acid rain and naturally occurring corrosives turn them green. Diluted CLR would probably work as well, Have you tried to check for Lead content in solder that holds rad together. Lead may leach out a small amount causing a small amount of clouding as well, some countries have not embraced the use of lead-free solders yet. ps master plumber for 35 years and have designed and built hydronic systems with as many as 24 loops, just under 2 miles of 1/2 inch tubing. Best of luck with your testing and hope you get some good results ! bike.gifmario.gif

Hmmm . isn't CLR supposed to be very safe? If so i think i might try using that as a flush on a test Rad. I don't see why i couldn't leave CLR in overnight and flipping the rad ever few hours?

Do you have any more info about CLR?

and thanks
   
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