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post #91 of 3087
This is looking more and more like a case-specific acceleration of platicizer seeping and deposition. cigar.gif
(in other words, it is not a "Primochill only" problem)

Why?
No clear pattern:
it happened to people using primochill lrt, masterkleer, clearflex and etc;
While using Silver coils or not;
With and without dyes;

Since all these circumstances (types of tubing, use of killcoils or PTnuke or dyes, proximity of the silver coil to possible ionizing electromagnetic fields) affect the amount and speed of platicizer seeping and deposition, we can't point to one of them and say that it is the culprit.

So, because this is a complex chemical problem, tubing that works for one loop will not be necessarily good for all loops.

I would say that careful observation and monitoring of your own loop, including ph measurements, would be the best way to prevent that from happening to your rig.

What we need here is someone teaching.gif whit knowledge in chemistry of industrial plastics, such as PVC, that can tell us how to slow down plasticizer seeping/leeching and deposition.

After that maybe we should setup a "plasticizer database" rolleyes.gif on the forum, where people can post the details of their loop and pictures of plasticizer deposition, if possible including ph, so we can have a better idea of what tubing is good for what situation and how to avoid problems on our own loops without having to replace all our tubing. biggrin.gif
post #92 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulver View Post

This is looking more and more like a case-specific acceleration of platicizer seeping and deposition. cigar.gif
(in other words, it is not a "Primochill only" problem)

Why?
No clear pattern:
it happened to people using primochill lrt, masterkleer, clearflex and etc;
While using Silver coils or not;
With and without dyes;

Since all these circumstances (types of tubing, use of killcoils or PTnuke or dyes, proximity of the silver coil to possible ionizing electromagnetic fields) affect the amount and speed of platicizer seeping and deposition, we can't point to one of them and say that it is the culprit.

So, because this is a complex chemical problem, tubing that works for one loop will not be necessarily good for all loops.

I would say that careful observation and monitoring of your own loop, including ph measurements, would be the best way to prevent that from happening to your rig.

What we need here is someone teaching.gif whit knowledge in chemistry of industrial plastics, such as PVC, that can tell us how to slow down plasticizer seeping/leeching and deposition.

After that maybe we should setup a "plasticizer database" rolleyes.gif on the forum, where people can post the details of their loop and pictures of plasticizer deposition, if possible including ph, so we can have a better idea of what tubing is good for what situation and how to avoid problems on our own loops without having to replace all our tubing. biggrin.gif

Given that I'm no longer speaking to the Chemical Engineer I know due to the unpaid debt of $10k his son owes me, I won't be able to offer to talk to him. Dude knows his stuff though. axesmiley.png

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif
 
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post #93 of 3087
I've seen quite a few cases come up over time with Primochill. More recently tbh but that can be attributed to its popularity. Will see what happens. There's a few of us looking deeper into this. I'm hoping my results turn out to be the Primochill tube so I can switch that out with the inexpensive stuff from Home Depot smile.gif
post #94 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by wermad View Post

I've seen quite a few cases come up over time with Primochill. More recently tbh but that can be attributed to its popularity. Will see what happens. There's a few of us looking deeper into this. I'm hoping my results turn out to be the Primochill tube so I can switch that out with the inexpensive stuff from Home Depot smile.gif

I can't really complain cause I only spent $10 total for 8' of new PrimoChill 1/2" and 4' of used and none of the used stuff I got is plasticized and only ran distilled. smile.gif

I just split one of the used lengths of tubing and cut off a bit for test purposes. First the split...

338

338

As you can see there is a bit of soil in the tubing. I don't think that it's plasticizing because I only used my thumb and rubbed it off. Didn't take much pressure at all to do either. I think it's more dust buildup from lack of use than anything else. I cut this piece in half from end to end and it wasn't cut from a longer piece. What you see is how it was when I got it. When I first looked inside I was a little concerned but then noticed what looked to be drops but with dirt on them. So it seems to be more residual liquid allowed to dry and collect dust than anything else. I didn't do anything with the other half it is as it was when I cut it in half. smile.gif

What size piece of tubing should I cut off the new bits? Would 3" be enough to test? mellowsmiley.gif

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif
Edited by Ceadderman - 1/26/12 at 4:10am
 
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post #95 of 3087
8+ years of watercooling and probably 10+ different types of tubing I have tried...bottom line unless the tubing says plasticizer free, it will leek plasticizer and you will get white precipitate on inner bore over time. I thought primochill at one point advertised no plasticizer in their inner bore of tubing, now I dont see that. I think primochill simply changed their tubing supplier or process and maybe used more plasticizer.

Home depot brand tubing has plasticizer and you are guaranteed to get white precipitate in tubing over time.

The answer isnt to slow leeching, the answer is to buy plasticizer free tubing, tygon makes some as do others. Primochill became popular from their lack of plasticizer leech, and they will lose that popularity now. It is amazing some company hasnt come up with colored tubing that is plasticizer free.

And yes all tubing will slightly lose some clarity over time, but their is a far cry between little loss clarity and white crap everywhere.
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post #96 of 3087
The Watts tubing is still the same and its been almost a week. So tomorrow I'll be slowly breaking down my rig to switch the Primochill. I could do it all at once but I think I'm coming down with pneumonia (again frown.gif ) so it maybe delayed.
post #97 of 3087
If the plasticizer is lipid soluble, wouldn't detergent get rid of it? IIRC, my tubing leached plasticizer during the initial 6-9 month phase and now its clear. I'll confirm once I take down my current loop.
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post #98 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by wermad View Post

The Watts tubing is still the same and its been almost a week. So tomorrow I'll be slowly breaking down my rig to switch the Primochill. I could do it all at once but I think I'm coming down with pneumonia (again frown.gif ) so it maybe delayed.

Take care of yourself werm I wouldn't sweat a little cloudy tubing at the moment, you don't want that pneumonia to get out of control. Sucked bein in the hospital with that stuff. Sucks bein in the hospital at all. mellowsmiley.gif

Though when your nursing staff can easily be rated 7 to 10 in looks it's not TOO bad. I had it pretty good in the ICU. smile.gif lol

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post #99 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulver View Post

This is looking more and more like a case-specific acceleration of platicizer seeping and deposition. cigar.gif
(in other words, it is not a "Primochill only" problem)
Why?
No clear pattern:
it happened to people using primochill lrt, masterkleer, clearflex and etc;
While using Silver coils or not;
With and without dyes;
Since all these circumstances (types of tubing, use of killcoils or PTnuke or dyes, proximity of the silver coil to possible ionizing electromagnetic fields) affect the amount and speed of platicizer seeping and deposition, we can't point to one of them and say that it is the culprit.
So, because this is a complex chemical problem, tubing that works for one loop will not be necessarily good for all loops.
I would say that careful observation and monitoring of your own loop, including ph measurements, would be the best way to prevent that from happening to your rig.
What we need here is someone teaching.gif whit knowledge in chemistry of industrial plastics, such as PVC, that can tell us how to slow down plasticizer seeping/leeching and deposition.
After that maybe we should setup a "plasticizer database" rolleyes.gif on the forum, where people can post the details of their loop and pictures of plasticizer deposition, if possible including ph, so we can have a better idea of what tubing is good for what situation and how to avoid problems on our own loops without having to replace all our tubing. biggrin.gif

A "plasticizer database" would be a great idea as would a database of non plasticizer tubing with bend radius etc. I have Tygon 3603 and over the past 6 months my tubing has gone a bit cloudy and my originally crystal clear green Feser F1 fluid is more opaque. However definitely no massive white build up like the Primochill tubing pictures here. I think this is because the Tygon plasticizer leeching is a cloudy/oily which is what I thought all DEHP plasticizer was like. I still think the white coating must be plasticizer reacting with something. However maybe it is better if it ends up coating the tubes like that than being suspended as an oily substance and circulating in the fluid?
    
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post #100 of 3087
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterEEL View Post

A "plasticizer database" would be a great idea as would a database of non plasticizer tubing with bend radius etc.

That's a good idea... I think I'll have to start one biggrin.gif

Tubing brands, diameters, materials, color, transparency, loop additives (coil, dyes, biocides, etc.), loop components, degree of leaching maybe?

I could make a spreadsheet and compile info. Maybe we'll see trends.
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