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Gainward 2gb GTX 560Ti Phantom vs MSI GTX 560Ti Hawk - Page 3

post #21 of 30
First of all, you don't want your PSU to be too much overkill as the efficiency lowers and it isn't good for the psu itself to be running low loads all the time (like car motors).
A 850W psu would easily handle any dual gpu system with killer overclocks, and a 650W is quite enough for 560ti SLI and 6950 CF. I had 2500k @5ghz and CF 6950's OC'd and unlocked on a 600W psu and experienced no problems, even stress tests were ok. I'm guessing here that after you have your SLI/CF setup you won't be upgrading your gpus for a couple of years? If so, then you have no reason to get anything over 700W.
Also, the cpu cooler has nothing to do with powersupplies as all you'll be connecting to the psu is the fan(s).

My (slightly biased) opinion is that get 6950's over 560ti's. They're just more powerful and have more vram than regular 560ti's do. Phantom cards aren't the best for SLI as the cooler is 2.5 slots (which makes it essentially a 3-slot card) while twin frozr for example is just 2 slots. What do you mean by this: "Then the driver issues reverts back to the Phantom2...." ?? If that's supposed to mean that 6950's have somehow worse drivers than 560ti's, then you're terribly mistaken.
post #22 of 30
^sorry its quite common knowledge that ati / amd drivers are a nightmare. I have to switch to the green team because I couldnt even play a few games.

And my 650w psu died...............................

why advise someone to go closer and closer towards the "cutting it thin" zone. After my psu went, my gpu died and one of my ram sticks I would never advise anyone to get anything other than an overkill psu

my 850w silver is more efficient than my 650 bronze........and a chemical car battery is just SLIGHTLY different to transformer coils and a load of capacitors.
    
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post #23 of 30
It's quite common misknowledge that ati / amd drivers are a nightmare. Yeah, there have been a few hideous drivers but those were fixed pretty quickly. And the green team drivers have never been problem free either. I might have been just lucky but I don't remember any driver problems apart my cf not working on Crysis 2 at launch (got like ½ the fps on cf compared to single card). What Ati card did you have?

How can you be so sure that your psu died because it was "insufficient", 460 SLI and i5 should pull nowhere near 650W, even under extreme stress. Maybe the psu had nothing to do with the whole thing? My pc died because of a power surge caused by lightning which took out pretty much everything except my heatsink biggrin.gif
post #24 of 30
Haha.

I know it might not have been my PSU - kinda been thinking that, but whenever I replaced it with the 850w the thing booted up fine and has been sweet since......the 650w psu was also making quite screaming noises (intermittently) while trying to post. So I just feel as if that was the problem.

I had a 5850, really nice one too, 950mhz on 1.162v 24/7 - but I could`nt play shift without constant stutter and the screen resolutions where never quite right, really wound me up. So after reading loads of reviews I decided to sell it to my friend and bought 2 460 hawks instead.

Of course nvidia beta drivers are pretty touchy, bsods can and have happened but overall Im much happier with the green team.

Im going to test my 650w psu on an older system incase It frys anyone elses
    
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post #25 of 30
Thread Starter 
Well I was only going by other users' posts with the AMD driver issues. I myself have owned an AMD for the past 2 years and had no problems until lately the screen would cut out randomly (more likely wear from both the GPU and computer in general as they're all atleast 2 years old) so I switched to an 8800GTS (which I currently have) but that doesn't provide enough power nor VRAM to run any new games at FPS I'd like (20 FPS in playable settings in Skyrim, not bumping into things before you can see them).

If a 650W PSU is sufficient, I then have another question. Does multiple vs single rail matter? I don't understand the difference at all so a layman's explanation before delving into the details would be lovely smile.gif
I'm thinking of getting this ThermalTake (rated at around 88% efficient on AUS mains) or this CoolerMaster (rated slightly below at 85%) if I can't find anything cheaper.


In terms of the CPU Cooler, the Hyper 212 Evo uses some current (120mm fan w/ 2000 max RPM) + 2x 200mm fans (1000 max RPM) + 1x 120mm fan (1200 max RPM). Would this become an issue under max load scenarios (thinking dual GPU + CPU folding/benchmarks)?

As for any upgrades after this, on this set-up? No. Once I buy the second GPU everything will be replacement, a second/larger HDD/SSD or a blu-ray. CPU and both GPUs will stay the same right until I completely rebuild it probably 2-2.5 years from now, that's why future-proofing is a large issue for me.


Currently looking at buying the MSI HD6950 2GB on Wednesday for a modest $319, unless someone provides me with anything more to change my mind. God damn building a computer is frustrating :\
post #26 of 30
you have to be careful with how you connect the loads between both rails I believe
    
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post #27 of 30

My 1gb cards use ALL the vram for BF3, which needs around 1,4 or 1,5 (correct me if im wrong) to play on ultra.

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post #28 of 30
Multirail vs. Single rail doesn't really matter. Here's a reply to the same question by Jonnyguru. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

What is "multiple +12V rails", really?

In most cases, multiple +12V rails are actually just a single +12V source just split up into multiple +12V outputs each with a limited output capability.

There are a few units that actually have two +12V sources, but these are typically very high output power supplies. And in most cases these multiple +12V outputs are split up again to form a total of four, five or six +12V rails for even better safety. To be clear: These REAL multiple +12V rail units are very rare and are all 1000W+ units (Enermax Galaxy, Topower/Tagan "Dual Engine", Thermaltake Tough Power 1000W & 1200W, for example.)

In some cases, the two +12V rail outputs are actually combined to create one large +12V output (Ultra X3 1000W, PC Power & Cooling Turbo Cool 1000W, for example.)

So why do they do they split up +12V rails??

Short circuit protection only works if there's minimal to no resistance in the short (like two wires touching or a hot lead touching a ground like the chassis wall, etc.) If the short occurs on a PCB, in a motor, etc. the resistance in this circuit will typically NOT trip short circuit protection. What does happen is the short essentially creates a load. Without an OCP the load just increases and increases until the wire heats up and the insulation melts off and there's a molten pile of flaming plastic at the bottom of the chassis. This is why rails are split up and "capped off" in most power supplies; there is a safety concern.

Is it true that some PSU's that claim to be multiple +12V rails don't have the +12V rail split at all?

Yes, this is true. But it's the exception and not the norm. It's typically seen in Seasonic built units (like the Corsair HX and Antec True Power Trio.) It's actually cheaper to make a single +12V rail PSU because you forego all of the components used in splitting up and limiting each rail and this may be one reason some OEM's will not split the rails, but say they are split. Some system builders adhere very closely to ATX12V specification for liability reasons, so a company that wants to get that business but also save money and reduce R&D costs will often "fib" and say the PSU has it's +12V split when it does not.

Why don't those PSU companies get in trouble? Because Intel actually lifted the split +12V rail requirement from spec, but they didn't actually "announce" it. They just changed the verbiage from "required" to "recommended" leaving system builders a bit confused as to what the specification really is.

So does splitting the +12V rails provide "cleaner and more stable voltages" like I've been told in the past?

It is true that marketing folks have told us that multiple +12V rails provides "cleaner and more stable voltages", but this is usually a falsehood. Quite frankly, the use this explaination because "offers stability and cleaner power" sounds much more palletable than "won't necessarily catch fire". Like I said before, typically there is only one +12V source and there is typically no additional filtering stage added when the rails are split off that makes the rails any more stable or cleaner than if they weren't split at all.

Why do some people FUD that single is better?

Because there are a few examples of companies that have produced power supplies with four +12V rails, something that in theory should provide MORE than ample power to a high end gaming rig, and screwed up. These PSU companies followed EPS12V specifications, which is for servers, not "gamers". they put ALL of the PCIe connectors on one of the +12V rails instead of a separate +12V rail. The +12V rail was easily overloaded and caused the PSU to shut down. Instead of correcting the problem, they just did away with the splitting of +12V rails altogether. Multiple +12V rail "enthusiast" PSU's today have a +12V rail just for PCIe connectors or may even split four or six PCIe connectors up across two different +12V rails. The rails themselves are capable of far more power output than any PCIe graphics card would ever need. In fact, Nvidia SLI certification these days REQUIRE that the PCIe connectors be on their own +12V rail to avoid any problems from running high end graphics cards on split +12V rail PSU's.

There's less components and less engineering to make a PSU that DOES NOT have the +12V rail split up, so it's cheaper to manufacturer (about $1.50 less on the BOM, $2 to $3 at retail) and typically this cost savings is NOT handed down to the consumer, so it actually behooves marketing to convince you that you only need single +12V rails.

But some people claim they can overclock better, etc. with a single +12V rail PSU

B.S. It's a placebo effect. The reality is that their previous PSU was defective or just wasn't as good as their current unit. If the old PSU was a cheap-o unit with four +12V rails and the new one is a PCP&C with one +12V rail, the new one isn't overclocking better because it's a single +12V rail unit. It's overclocking better because the old PSU was crap. It's only coincidental if the old PSU had multiple +12V rails and the current one has just one.

The only "problem" the occurs with multiple +12V rails is that when a +12V rail is overloaded (for example: more than 20A is being demanded from a rail set to only deliver up to 20A), the PSU shuts down. Since there are no "limits" on single +12V rail PSU's, you can not overload the rails and cause them to shut down..... unless you're using a "too-small" PSU in the first place. Single +12V rails do not have better voltage regulation, do not have better ripple filtering, etc. unless the PSU is better to begin with.

So there are no disadvantages to using a PSU with multiple +12V rails?

No! I wouldn't say that at all. To illustrate potential problems, I'll use these two examples:

Example 1:

An FSP Epsilon 700W has ample power for any SLI rig out there, right? But the unit only comes with two PCIe connectors. The two PCIe connectors on the unit are each on their own +12V rail. Each of these rails provides up to 18A which is almost three times more than what a 6-pin PCIe power connector is designed to deliver! What if I want to run a pair of GTX cards? It would have been ideal if they could put two PCIe connectors on each of those rails instead of just one, but instead those with GTX SLI are forced to use Molex to PCIe adapters. Here comes the problem: When you use the Molex to PCIe adapters, you have now added the load from graphics cards onto the rail that's also supplying power to all of your hard drives, optical drives, fans, CCFL's, water pump.. you name it. Suddenly, during a game, the PC shuts down completely.

Solution: To my knowledge, there aren't one-to-two PCIe adapters. Ideally, you'd want to open that PSU up and solder down another pair of PCIe connectors to the rails the existing PCIe connectors are on, but alas... that is not practical. So even if your PSU has MORE than ample power for your next graphics cards upgrade, if it doesn't come with all of the appropriate connectors, it's time to buy another power supply.

Example 2:

Thermal Electric Coolers take a lot of power and are typically powered by Molex power connectors. I, for one, prefer to run TEC's on their own power supply. But that's not always an option. If you had a power supply with split +12V rails and powered your TEC's with Molexes, you would be putting your TEC's on the same +12V rail as the hard drives, optical drives, fans, CCFL's, water pump.. you name it, just as you did with the Molex to PCIe adapters. The power supply could, essentially, shut down on you in the middle of using it. A power supply with a single, non-split, +12V rail would not have any kind of limit as to how much power is delivered to any particular group of connectors, so one could essentially run several TEC's off of Molex power connectors and not experience any problems if one had a single +12V rail PSU.

Typical multiple +12V rail configurations:
2 x 12V rails
Original ATX12V specification's division of +12V rails.
One rail to the CPU, one rail to everything else.
VERY old school since it's very likely that "everything else" may include a graphics card that requires a PCIe connector.
Typically only seen on PSU's < 600W.
3 x 12V rails
A "modified" ATX12V specification that takes into consideration PCIe power connectors.
One rail to the CPU, one rail to everything else but the PCIe connectors and a third rail just for PCIe connectors.
Works perfectly for SLI, but not good for PC's requiring four PCIe connectors.
4 x 12V rails (EPS12V style)
Originally implemented in EPS12V specification
Because typical application meant deployment in dual processor machine, two +12V rails went to CPU cores via the 8-pin CPU power connector.
"Everything else" is typically split up between two other +12V rails. Sometimes 24-pin's two +12V would share with SATA and Molex would go on fourth rail.
Not really good for high end SLI because a graphics card always has to share with something.
Currently Nvidia will NOT SLI certify PSU's using this layout because they now require PCIe connectors to get their own rail.
In the non-server, enthusiast/gaming market we don't see this anymore. The "mistake" of implementing this layout was only done initially by two or three PSU companies in PSU's between 600W and 850W and only for about a year's time.
4 x 12V rails (Most common arrangement for "enthusiast" PC)
A "modified" ATX12V, very much like 3 x 12V rails except the two, four or even six PCIe power connectors are split up across the additional two +12V rails.
If the PSU supports 8-pin PCIe or has three PCIe power connectors on each of the +12V rails, it's not uncommon for their +12V rail to support a good deal more than just 20A.
This is most common in 700W to 1000W power supplies, although for 800W and up power supplies it's not unusual to see +12V ratings greater than 20A per rail.
5 x 12V rails
This is very much what one could call an EPS12V/ATX12V hybrid.
Dual processors still each get their own rail, but so do the PCIe power connectors.
This can typically be found in 850W to 1000W power supplies.
6 x 12V rails
This is the mack daddy because it satisfies EPS12V specifications AND four or six PCIe power connectors without having to exceed 20A on any +12V rail
Two +12V rails are dedicated to CPU cores just like an EPS12V power supply.
24-pin's +12V, SATA, Molex, etc. are split up across two more +12V rails.
PCIe power connectors are split up across the last two +12V rails.
This is typically only seen in 1000W and up power supplies.

Ok... What's the bottom line?

The bottom line is, for 99% of the folks out there single vs. multiple +12V rails is a NON ISSUE. It's something that has been hyped up by marketing folks on BOTH SIDES of the fence. Too often we see mis-prioritized requests for PSU advice: Asking "what single +12V rail PSU should I get" when the person isn't even running SLI! Unless you're running a plethora of Peltiers in your machine, it should be a non-issue assuming that the PSU has all of the connectors your machine requires and there are no need for "splitters" (see Example 1 in the previous bullet point).

The criteria for buying a PSU should be:
Does the PSU provide enough power for my machine?
Does the PSU have all of the connectors I require (6-pin for high end PCIe, two 6-pin, four 6-pin or even the newer 8-pin PCIe connector)?
If using SLI or Crossfire, is the unit SLI or Crossfire certified (doesn't matter if a PSU is certified for one or the other as long as it has the correct connectors. If it passed certification for EITHER that means it's been real world tested with dual graphics cards in a worst case scenario).

Figure out if there are any variables that may affect the actual output capability of the PSU:
What temperature is the PSU rated at? Room (25° to 30°C) or actual operating temperature (40°C to 50°C)
If room temperature, what's the derating curve? As a PSU runs hotter, it's capability to put out power is diminished. If no de-rate can be found, assume that a PSU rated at room temperature may only be able to put out around 75% of it's rated capability once installed in a PC.

After that, narrow selection down with finer details that may be more important to others than it may be to you....
Does the unit have power factor correction?
Is the unit efficient?
Is the unit quiet?
Is the unit modular?
Am I paying extra for bling?
Do I want bling?

So you'll be ordering from PC case gear? They sell FSP Aurum gold power supplies, which are gold-rated and semi-modular.
edit: Out of those 2, the thermaltake seems ok. I wouldn't touch the coolermaster one though.
Edited by Blizlake - 1/16/12 at 6:55am
post #29 of 30
Thread Starter 
I'm planning on buying the FSP Aurum 650W (as it is both cheaper and more efficient than other 650-750W PSUs on PCCaseGear), will this be adequate to CrossFire 6950's later on?
I was thinking of buying a 6950 soon with my current PSU, until I looked and realised my 450W PSU (that is two years old now) only provides 19A on the 12V-rail (effectively 228W, half what it is stated to provide) :\ So instead I'm going to have to upgrade my PSU and GPU at the same time.
post #30 of 30
The 650w ought to be enough, I had a 600w and it did well. It's the second rig on my sig
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