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Another claw gripper looking for a high budget mouse - Page 4

post #31 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginzi View Post

Okay maybe it isnt random, but neither is it a predictable acceleration. Afaik steelseries fixed the problems (neg. accel,etc..) with cloth pads, but they didn't fix the accel. So this picture is still valid:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/xai%20acceleration/lewis6194/belsqdbh6ng4hh0nr.gif
I dont know if anyone tested the sensei for the amount of accel, but the pictures of the xai's accel show that it has some wavelike acceleration. It isn't random, but predictable?!?!... i dont think so. You can get used to it or tolerate it, but there are people who will tell you that the xai "feels off"
Ok, i have to admit regarding everything else you desire from a mouse the A9500 sensor is great, but if you you really want a mouse that has no accel, then you should definitely avoid those
But i dont wanna start this discussion about the A9500 sensors acceleration biggrin.gif

Thanks was just looking for a picture with this wavy behavior to put here. This is exactly what I've meant with inconsistency apart from the acceleration.
post #32 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginzi View Post

Okay maybe it isnt random, but neither is it a predictable acceleration. Afaik steelseries fixed the problems (neg. accel,etc..) with cloth pads, but they didn't fix the accel. So this picture is still valid:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/xai%20acceleration/lewis6194/belsqdbh6ng4hh0nr.gif
I dont know if anyone tested the sensei for the amount of accel, but the pictures of the xai's accel show that it has some wavelike acceleration. It isn't random, but predictable?!?!... i dont think so. You can get used to it or tolerate it, but there are people who will tell you that the xai "feels off"
Ok, i have to admit regarding everything else you desire from a mouse the A9500 sensor is great, but if you you really want a mouse that has no accel, then you should definitely avoid those
But i dont wanna start this discussion about the A9500 sensors acceleration biggrin.gif

Yesh, I was actually one of the first to report that the sensei no longer malfunctioned or hit negative accel on most popular cloth surfaces. Likely the result of the newer firmware set (v. A0) from Avago technologies.

I know the postion you're coming from as I too have shown dislike to this specific sensor or rather firmware in the past. I'm sure you know the main reasons, but after using and playing with the Sensei for a few months, I'm confident that I'm recommending a solid mouse worthy of using regardless of the ~5% positive acceleration flaw exhibited when moving the cursor over it's accel threshold. I'm inclined to believe the graph you linked from the guy @ wikisjp only tested the acceleration at high speeds as I cant get my A9500 mice to show inconsistencies with slower movement. My Sensei differs as it has a little more room to play with before it reaches accel.

The Xai's did "feel off"... especially on a cloth pad, but the Sensei excels in areas that most optical mice will never reach unless Avago takes them seriously again.

- It has solid tracking quality across a span of multiple CPI settings on multiple surfaces.
- It excels past the tracking speeds of every optical mouse I own. (Even on cloth)
*Good MCU and decent programming
- It has a very low lift off distance with an Avago based lens. (No issues with max speed, nor tracking quality)

There isn't a another mouse I'm aware of that has all 3 of these categories down.

It's predictable in a manor that I know when the cursor starts its acceleration curve. The graph dosen't 100% reflect the true nature of how the accel occurs in a real life scenarios, but I'll agree that it's still inconsistent in most low sens gaming situations swiping at high speeds.

Whether the pros outweigh the cons depends on your playing style and what you're comfortable with. Most people for example rely strictly on their wrist and won't even come close to triggering the flaw.

The 1.1 was a good mouse for its time, but what about those that desire to use it with a very low 360 sensitivity? Negative accel is better than positive, but it's still technically falls into the "inconsistent" category.

The EC and AM also have specific problems I'm not fond of, but Zowie is more than aware of them and I rather seem them succeed as they're targeting a niche market.
Edited by Skylit - 1/25/12 at 7:28am
post #33 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit View Post

I'm inclined to believe the graph you linked from the guy @ wikisjp only tested the acceleration at high speeds as I cant get my A9500 mice to show inconsistencies with slower movement.

Actually the graph above is a function of movement speed and if you look at the scale it starts at around 0.2m/s and and is cut off at 3m/s, therefore is tested in a wide range of speeds. The graph clearly shows the inconsistency in that it is has a wavy shape instead of being straight, which would translate in 1:1 movement. Here you can clearly see that for example at ~0.65m/s the sensor has a 1:0.95 (5% slower) movement while at ~0.85m/s it has 1:1.05 (5% faster than it should).

But it's not only the general inconsistency (sinus wave) it's also that the function is slowly rising all the time depending on the movement speed and after ~1m/s the counts tracked stay above the 100% all the time, which is why after around 1m/s you'll always experience some positive acceleration.

Now I don't have the Sensei but as it apparently still has the positive acceleration I also assume that the inconsistency is still there, which of course is not so easy to tell by hand. The negative acceleration the Xai had on cloth pads has nothing to do with the above though and was probably due to poor tracking quality on cloth surfaces, as also apparent in the older laser generation mice. They solved this by tweaking something in the sensor or the laser unit apparently (could be different focus, more powerful beam... who knows) and therefore increasing the tracking quality on various surfaces. It has nothing to do with the inconsistent and accelerated tracking happening on every surface though. This has more to do with either algorithms or timers in the sensor logic (or something else I'm probably not thinking of wink.gif ).

So don't get me wrong I also still use my Xai and these things are not really apparent on the desktop... but I'm pretty sure that it will affect your aiming skill in games as you won't be able to do reflex shots because your muscle memory just won't be able to adapt to the inconsistent and accelerated tracking, because well... it's not consistent.
post #34 of 64
I see and understand what you're saying, but it hasn't translated to what occurs within my video game. Ignoring the inevitable margin of human error on my part, what if there was a sensor that seemed consistent, but showed the same type of issue graphed via sinus wave? Would it go undetected if it wasn't graphed? Also, the "g-pad" is a glass surface. What if the consistency isn't as bad on cloth also ignoring its previous subpar performance?

I've already accepted the fact that the mouse can be fairly inconstant with faster swipes, but I feel that I'm not as hindered as some of the other issues in gaming mice. I'll trade the lesser of two evils until Avago actually makes effort. (Or how about logitech request it since I'm willing to bet quite a few of them lurk these forums? heh )

I actually assumed the firmware change was the cause, but there are a few theoretical reasons as to why it now performs better on cloth. It just seemed more likely as the Sensei uses the newer srom revision.

And yeah, I'm sure it does effect my aiming and muscle memory, but that dosen't mean i can't play good smile.gif
Edited by Skylit - 1/25/12 at 10:27am
post #35 of 64
I am also a claw gripper and I have the Razer Naga. It's a really great mouse if you like the 12 buttons on the side which I find a great pair for my nostromo, it doesn't have the number keys on it. I've also had no problems with the sensor, besides when my card's hair gets under the sensor.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk
post #36 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit View Post

I see and understand what you're saying, but it hasn't translated to what occurs within my video game. Ignoring the inevitable margin of human error on my part, what if there was a sensor that seemed consistent, but showed the same type of issue graphed via sinus wave? Would it go undetected if it wasn't graphed? Also, the "g-pad" is a glass surface. What if the consistency isn't as bad on cloth also ignoring its previous subpar performance?
I've already accepted the fact that the mouse can be fairly inconstant with faster swipes, but I feel that i'm not as hindered as a some of the other issues in that popular gaming mice have. I'll trade the lesser of two evils until Avago actually makes effort. (Or how about logitech request it since I'm willing to bet quite a few of them lurk these forums? heh )
I actually assumed the firmware change was the cause, but there are a few theoretical reasons as to why it now performs better on cloth. It just seemed more likely as the Sensei uses the newer srom revision.
And yeah, I'm sure it does effect my aiming and muscle memory, but that dosen't mean i can't play good smile.gif

Yeah unfortunately the inconsistency is so little that by using the mouse naturally you can't really feel the inconsistency (other than maybe think it's a little weird but that's it). It's only with tests like this where you actually see it or you do some tests like for example:

Put something heavy on the left or right side of your mousepad... a book would be OK although something that's heavier and doesn't move at all would be perfect. Now align the mouse so that it touches the book and notice where the cursor is. Now when you move the mouse across your pad and back to the book you'll notice that the cursor will never hit the exact same spot you started at. (And you'll also see this behavior at fairly low speeds)

Also the 9500 seems to track really really well on the G-Pad reaching 6m/s perfect control speeds so it's not because of it either.

But of course it also doesn't mean you can't play well with it. I myself still use my Xai because these things at least aren't as noticeable as the Dynamic DPI Scaling of my Imperator which is by far worse and is noticeable the minute you use it. Furthermore I don't like the Deathadder shape and it also jitters a little on my Icemat. I'd love to play with my Lachesis tbh, but it cannot calibrate well to my Icemat and therefore starts tracking strange after a few minutes of gaming and lifting it constantly. The other mice aren't even worth mentioning and therefore I'm pretty much stuck. I'll probably send my Imperator back as Razer is ignoring me about the DPI scaling and I'd love to give the Zowie AM a try but I fear that it might jitter on my Icemat too :/.

Anyway it still means that you won't be able to do reflex shots well without missing. As I play just for fun I don't care so much about missing shots I know I would normally be able to nail.
post #37 of 64
I bought the Sensei 5 days ago and i can confirm it has the same inconsistency in tracking. I'm not talking about fast swipes, but i can't even do a flick shot with this mouse. I have to shoot 2-3 bursts before hitting someone from medium distance and i can HS with the first 2 bullets with IME, Kana, Sidewinder X3 etc etc. Everything else is just perfect (shape, size, switches, cord you name it), but right now i have a headache because i have to focus so hard to aim with this mouse and still miss 50% of the shots. I don't even have very low sens (~ 40 cm/360) and i still can't get used to this piece of crap. I gave it 5 days of testing, but from this point forward i'm afraid it will end up smashed into pieces like it's brother the Xai. Hopefully i won't have a problem selling it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MONVMENTVM View Post

The graph clearly shows the inconsistency in that it is has a wavy shape instead of being straight, which would translate in 1:1 movement. Here you can clearly see that for example at ~0.65m/s the sensor has a 1:0.95 (5% slower) movement while at ~0.85m/s it has 1:1.05 (5% faster than it should).
But it's not only the general inconsistency (sinus wave) it's also that the function is slowly rising all the time depending on the movement speed and after ~1m/s the counts tracked stay above the 100% all the time, which is why after around 1m/s you'll always experience some positive acceleration.
That sounds about right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MONVMENTVM View Post

The other mice aren't even worth mentioning and therefore I'm pretty much stuck.
What about Zowie AM and Kana? I have both and their sensors are light years ahead of A9500.
post #38 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by MONVMENTVM View Post


Anyway it still means that you won't be able to do reflex shots well without missing. As I play just for fun I don't care so much about missing shots I know I would normally be able to nail.

My rail acc is more or less the same if not better. I think I'm beyond the game.
post #39 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaingosu View Post

I bought the Sensei 5 days ago and i can confirm it has the same inconsistency in tracking. I'm not talking about fast swipes, but i can't even do a flick shot with this mouse. I have to shoot 2-3 bursts before hitting someone from medium distance and i can HS with the first 2 bullets with IME, Kana, Sidewinder X3 etc etc. Everything else is just perfect (shape, size, switches, cord you name it), but right now i have a headache because i have to focus so hard to aim with this mouse and still miss 50% of the shots. I don't even have very low sens (~ 40 cm/360) and i still can't get used to this piece of crap. I gave it 5 days of testing, but from this point forward i'm afraid it will end up smashed into pieces like it's brother the Xai. Hopefully i won't have a problem selling it.

Wow. Really. Wow. Is it defective? Wow. Perhaps I'll buy a Sensei and return it if it's no good. It seems like a good option.
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post #40 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaingosu View Post

I bought the Sensei 5 days ago and i can confirm it has the same inconsistency in tracking. I'm not talking about fast swipes, but i can't even do a flick shot with this mouse. I have to shoot 2-3 bursts before hitting someone from medium distance and i can HS with the first 2 bullets with IME, Kana, Sidewinder X3 etc etc. Everything else is just perfect (shape, size, switches, cord you name it), but right now i have a headache because i have to focus so hard to aim with this mouse and still miss 50% of the shots. I don't even have very low sens (~ 40 cm/360) and i still can't get used to this piece of crap. I gave it 5 days of testing, but from this point forward i'm afraid it will end up smashed into pieces like it's brother the Xai. Hopefully i won't have a problem selling it.
That sounds about right.
What about Zowie AM and Kana? I have both and their sensors are light years ahead of A9500.

They both don't have these problems altough the Kana seems not to track so well at higher CPI levels iirc, but there's a lot of information about this in the Kana threads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit View Post

My rail acc is more or less the same if not better. I think I'm beyond the game.

Yeah, I do believe you but you're probably doing the most rail hits by strafing around anyway, which makes the mouse not that relevant. Also when you're doing small moves to aim at someone, the inconsistent tracking of the ADNS-9500 really won't matter... even when you move the mouse for 20 counts at +/- 5% inconsistency that would be a maximum of 1 count that's off. So in that case it really doesn't matter at all. It's when the mouse travels longer distances that it does affect aiming (like swiping and shooting or turning around and shooting). And the funny thing is that in these cases you'll probably blame the missing hit on yourself, even though you would have hit your target with a more consistent mouse. As I said it's hard to see or feel the inconsistency but it's still messing around biggrin.gif.
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