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[IGN] Xbox 720 to be 6 times as powerful compared to current gen systems - Page 23  

post #221 of 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by L D4WG View Post

6770 in a PC is not the same as a 6670 in a console.
With what console developers can do on consoles expect much better graphics on the console compared to a PC with the same hardware.
As has been pointed out already, look at what the super outdated consoles can do today.
Next gen consoles are going to have insane graphics, dare I say better than what my sig rig can produce.
PC hardware has always been more powerful, but compared console hardware to PC is like comparing apples to oranges.

Yep. Even though PC graphics cards have ridiculous power, API's can only do so much for a linear experience across multiple platforms. Many PC gamers are ignorant and don't grasp the fact that their hardware is barely being tapped into even with the latest and greatest DX11 games.

It's likely been stated, but a 6670 would make sense if they want to launch next gen at a fair entry price. I think the heads at microsoft like the fact that they make a crap ton more money off anything involved with the XBL marketplace.
Edited by Skylit - 1/25/12 at 2:56am
post #222 of 546
I am VERY disappoint if this is true, since my PC is ~10 times more powerful than a 360 at the moment. A 6670? Really? Weak mad.gif
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post #223 of 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoursTCMZ View Post

I am VERY disappoint if this is true, since my PC is ~10 times more powerful than a 360 at the moment. A 6670? Really? Weak mad.gif

And yet the next gen xbox could probably run games at higher quality graphics than your sigrig.
    
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post #224 of 546
Oh, I know that not having to use an API like DirectX or OpenGL will add to performance significantly. At the same time, if you look at a modern game on consoles (say, Skyrim - one of the most popular games on PCs/consoles to date), you currently need something along the lines of a 5770 to achieve console-level performance (on a PC), so the 5770 is being used about as well as the Xbox's GPU (which is a tiny bit weaker than an X1900 XT, I believe? Same architecture with a few tweaks, but fewer transistors).


Here are some benchmarks with the X1900 XT in, on PC:

Half Life 2

Far Cry

You will notice in both of the above benchmarks, it is within about 5% of an Nvidia 7800 GTX (512mb) - i.e. if we adopt a 5% margin of error (which is not unreasonable in one-off tests), we can call them approximately identical in performance.


Here is a benchmark showing multiple graphics cards. Not the x1900, but its bigger brother, the x1950:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/bfg-geforce-8800-gtx-review/11

You will see something around a 50-80% increase in score going from the X1950 to the Nvidia 8800 GTX - the 8800 GTX - a card practically identical to the 9800-series that would later replace it.


Here is a benchmark including an 9800 GT and the 5670:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5670,2533-8.html

You will notice a pretty large difference in performance between the 9800 and the 5670 - between 5-20% throughout the review.

You will also notice the 5750 - a card significantly slower than a 5770 at the top of the list, achieving somewhere between 25-100% higher framerates (depending on minimum/average results) regularly.


The 5770 is not significantly more expensive than the 5670, and while I know that a console will get more out of it than a PC ever could, it does not change that for a slight increase in power consumption and cost, they would approximately double the graphical power - which would lengthen the console's lifespan significantly. If required speed of a chip increases in anything resembling Moore's Law, doubling power will lengthen the life by 1.5-2 years, at the very least - significantly offsetting research/development costs, meaning the end user ought to get a similar price as they would were it using the 5670, right?


Even if that is not the case, can you see how this is *not* a huge increase over the current graphics in the Xbox 360? It's been nearly a decade since it came out, and will be over a decade by the time its successor hits the shelves. Graphical performance ought to increase by more than double in that time. The fact here is that if it uses something akin to a 6670, it will not.


Pre-posting edit: My mistake. I thought the 5670 was the same as the 6670 rebadged, like the 5770/6770 is/was. It is not. Here is a comparison:

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/radeon-hd-6570-radeon-hd-6670-turks,review-32169-8.html


Here you will see that the 6670 is about 10-20% faster than the 5670. It means it's a slightly better upgrade than I thought it was, but the majority of my point still stands.

The 6670 is not powerful enough to provide a large increase in graphics performance for the length of time required for a next-gen console. Even with the increase that not having to use an API will give to performance, it might perform about as well as a card with four times its power on PC (much as the X1900 is performing like a 5770 now - a card only two to three times as powerful).

The 6870 is approximately three times as powerful as the 6670 (with a bit of approximation, at least - 5770 crossfire is about the same as a 6870, and the 5770 is about one and a half times the performance of a 6670).

That means that using it, at best, we'd be looking at an overclocked 6870 in performance. Seems fine now, right? Except in five years time, the 6870 will be about as powerful as integrated graphics (if APUs continue their upward trend). Tablets will be almost as graphically impressive and phones will be performing better due to their fewer pixels.


I cannot imagine that that is a situation any console manufacturer wants to be in. Hence why I cannot imagine why they would do this.
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post #225 of 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

It is quite noticeably slower man. It's the 6770 that it's a notch faster than it.

Last I looked the 4870 was approx 10% faster than 5770. The 6770 is exactly the same card as 5770 with just few lines different in BIOS. You can make a 5770 into a 6770 by just flashing the card BIOS (I have done it and it works fine).

The main advantages of 5770 over 4870 are considerably lower power consumption, DX 11 support (even if the cards lacks horespower to use tesselation in reality there are other advantages in using DX 11) and support to more than 2 displays. A 5770 can run up to five displays (altho it still has only 2 clock gens in it so thats why only 2 of them can be "legacy" displays, like HDMI, VGA or DVI).
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post #226 of 546
this sounds great to me! They do amazing things with the hardware they have today (Forza 4 is amazing!)... and besides, if we are being honest, the multitude of problems with current generation games being released today ISN'T the graphics.
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post #227 of 546
Wii-U and Xbox720 are likely to be 5 year life-span consoles and no more than that.

Not many here will understand that when you go through one generation of 7-10 years in your late teens you're approaching 30 by the end of it. By the time the 2nd generation comes along, you're knocking on the door of 40.

Then you get ups and down within the Industry and then you're wondering if anything good is going to happen at all and it all seems like a big joke.

The hard reset that console manufacturers did with the last 3 generations isn't working because they're seeing far into the distance with money and not right infront of them with gamer perception.

5 years is a long time. And 7-10 years is just Marketing stepping in to extend the life of game consoles and projecting wildly optimistic development hopes within closed designs.

The PS3 has gone as far as it will go. Motorstorm 1 still makes a mockery of Motorstorm Apocalypse graphically and gameplay wise. GT5 shows what it can do, but it's hugely limited to what it could have been and it took a long, long time to achieve it. 5 years and more.
The Xbox360 seems to have what it already had at the start; there was no real 5 year delayed period where developers were wondering how the hell to access the power of the console, so it's streamlined in terms of where it was heading and what you could get out of it.

Gamers should not have to pay the price for ill-conceived ideas over a 7-10 year period, because Manufacturers are reaching too far with it.
Manufacturer a solid gaming console and have it a 5 year life span and put the best that it can be within it and give developers all they can so they can easily achieve with what they already have.

An excited Gamer at the end of the prospect of something happening in a shorter space of time is better than a promise from a game developer "reaching its potential in 7-10 years".
Edited by cladiniron - 1/25/12 at 4:17am
post #228 of 546
This thread was a good read, lots of interesting replies smile.gif
post #229 of 546
Does it really matter?

Everyone knows that developers will make the best out of the hardware unlike pc hardware. A 6670 can probably do wonders due to the way console games are designed. Probably be the same scenario next gen console games will look amazing then not so amazing but still good as years go down. Also what did people expect them to put in this console? a 6950? These things are designed to be cheap, consoles are already shifting towards cpu than the gpu.

Look at uncharted 3, looks as good as some of the pc's best looking games then look at the hardware its running on. PCs may be 10x as powerful but will never look 10x as good, it is our reward and our curse it is a fight where the only goal is survival.biggrin.gif
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post #230 of 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

Last I looked the 4870 was approx 10% faster than 5770. The 6770 is exactly the same card as 5770 with just few lines different in BIOS. You can make a 5770 into a 6770 by just flashing the card BIOS (I have done it and it works fine).
The main advantages of 5770 over 4870 are considerably lower power consumption, DX 11 support (even if the cards lacks horespower to use tesselation in reality there are other advantages in using DX 11) and support to more than 2 displays. A 5770 can run up to five displays (altho it still has only 2 clock gens in it so thats why only 2 of them can be "legacy" displays, like HDMI, VGA or DVI).

The 5770/6770 both are slightly faster than the 4850.

But the one being discussed here, the 6670, is noticeably slower than both the 4850 and the HD4870.

As for the power consumption, Nintendo has already stated that the card will be shrinked to current manufacturing processes, which will on its own cut power consumption dramatically.
   
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