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post #181 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

I think one of Martins point is copper ions are an effective biocide. And there are 1560 people on EK's poll that are just using distilled only, and dont seem to be getting algae/microbes. Both silver and copper have some risk during first weeks, until ion concentration is built up. So is silver necessary to add, or is copper ions sufficient. And if silver isnt necessary, is it just a potential problem.
There is one government study showing that metal bars impregnated in filter, much like our silver coil in reservoir, will produce 20 ppb of silver, which was not only effective in preventing algae/bacteria in their pools, but 20 ppb is effective against most algae/bacteria in lab studies. See below study and link. Most pools use ionization or colloidal for higher levels, but this study quoted below showed even solid silver will work.
So to me solid silver is an effective biocide, but still doesnt answer how much it reduces the chance further from copper ions alone. And even it if does reduce the risk, I wouldnt use it with any nickel plating or fittings that I wanted to preserve nickel on, given what we have seen and given Silver SEP is +.8 and nickel -.25. No question nickel will lose its electron to silver (nickel oxidaton/corrosion), only unknown is if the concentration of silver ions is enough to corrode nickel as quickly as we are seeing.
Quote:
To determine the enduring efficiency of silver purification, the Allegheny County Health Department in Pennsylvania conducted tests in a 152,000-gallon pool which previously had been disinfected by a 50-pounds-per-day gas chlorinator. That system was replaced by a silver system for the swimming seasons in 1974 and 1975. Pool water circulated through a filter of activated carbon impregnated with metallic silver. As a supplement, three pounds of calcium hypochlorite were put into the water each night to oxidize organic matter introduced into the pool by up to 300 daily bathers, but by morning no available chlorine was left in the water.
The County Health Department took up to 50 daily samples and found that silver ions remained in the pool at the low, steady rate of 20 parts per billion, with water free of coliform, pseudomonas and staphylococcus bacteria throughout the two seasons. In contrast, 65 water samples from 30 other pools having a mean concentration of 700 parts per billion of available chlorine for disinfection, showed a mean of 1.3 pseudomonas and 7.3 staph cells per millilitre of water.
"This data," the Health Department reported, "indicates that silver is equal to chlorine in maintaining essentially coliform-free pool water, and is somewhat better than chlorine in destroying pseudomonas and staph aureus organisms. The latter two organisms are important from the stand-point of bather health. "During the two seasons with the silver treated pool there have been no eye, ear, nose or throat irritations or infections reported," the Department declared. "It should also be noted that there were no visible growths of algae during the testing period." The Health Department reported its conclusions thus:
"Silver is an effective bactericide for swimming pool water treatment.
"Silver disinfection is easier and safer than other purifying agents.
"Silver does not produce changes in pH thus eliminating the need to add pH adjustment chemicals.
"Silver at prescribed dosages is non toxic to humans."

Interesting, good information..thumb.gif
    
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post #182 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post

Good to know, thanks! What about solid metal silver?
I'm questioning the form more than the element. Silver and Copper both have been shown to have benefits when in fluid forms, but PTnuke is already dissolved in a liquid, where a silver coil is a metal with an expectation that there are enough silver ions that come off the coil to protect the loop.
Probably the only way you would know is to do some sort of detailed copper ion and silver ion count of sorts in a system running a silver coil.?

This is an inevitable process if you are running DI or distilled, moreso with DI of course. A simple tds meter will tell you the concentration.
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post #183 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

I think one of Martins point is copper ions are an effective biocide. And there are 1560 people on EK's poll that are just using distilled only, and dont seem to be getting algae/microbes. Both silver and copper have some risk during first weeks, until ion concentration is built up. So is silver necessary to add, or is copper ions sufficient. And if silver isnt necessary, is it just a potential problem.
There is one government study showing that metal bars impregnated in filter, much like our silver coil in reservoir, will produce 20 ppb of silver, which was not only effective in preventing algae/bacteria in their pools, but 20 ppb is effective against most algae/bacteria in lab studies. See below study and link. Most pools use ionization or colloidal for higher levels, but this study quoted below showed even solid silver will work.
So to me solid silver is an effective biocide, but still doesnt answer how much it reduces the chance further from copper ions alone. And even it if does reduce the risk, I wouldnt use it with any nickel plating or fittings that I wanted to preserve nickel on, given what we have seen and given Silver SEP is +.8 and nickel -.25. No question nickel will lose its electron to silver (nickel oxidaton/corrosion), only unknown is if the concentration of silver ions is enough to corrode nickel as quickly as we are seeing.
Quote:
To determine the enduring efficiency of silver purification, the Allegheny County Health Department in Pennsylvania conducted tests in a 152,000-gallon pool which previously had been disinfected by a 50-pounds-per-day gas chlorinator. That system was replaced by a silver system for the swimming seasons in 1974 and 1975. Pool water circulated through a filter of activated carbon impregnated with metallic silver. As a supplement, three pounds of calcium hypochlorite were put into the water each night to oxidize organic matter introduced into the pool by up to 300 daily bathers, but by morning no available chlorine was left in the water.
The County Health Department took up to 50 daily samples and found that silver ions remained in the pool at the low, steady rate of 20 parts per billion, with water free of coliform, pseudomonas and staphylococcus bacteria throughout the two seasons. In contrast, 65 water samples from 30 other pools having a mean concentration of 700 parts per billion of available chlorine for disinfection, showed a mean of 1.3 pseudomonas and 7.3 staph cells per millilitre of water.
"This data," the Health Department reported, "indicates that silver is equal to chlorine in maintaining essentially coliform-free pool water, and is somewhat better than chlorine in destroying pseudomonas and staph aureus organisms. The latter two organisms are important from the stand-point of bather health. "During the two seasons with the silver treated pool there have been no eye, ear, nose or throat irritations or infections reported," the Department declared. "It should also be noted that there were no visible growths of algae during the testing period." The Health Department reported its conclusions thus:
"Silver is an effective bactericide for swimming pool water treatment.
"Silver disinfection is easier and safer than other purifying agents.
"Silver does not produce changes in pH thus eliminating the need to add pH adjustment chemicals.
"Silver at prescribed dosages is non toxic to humans."

I said it before, copper is an effective biocide and silver is even more of one. The real magic though is when you combine the two. They will react with each other to form into a mighty power ranger style super biocide.
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post #184 of 205
Sorry for all my replies at once, just woke up smile.gif

I just wanted to post a recent experience. I just took apart my loop out of curiosity to check the damage. It hasn't been drained for three years. Here's what I found.

The coolant I used was the black colored feser 1 that glows blue under a light. My tubing had all sorts of green bio, presumably algae, build-up. The blocks were absolutely clean as far as scale or corrosion goes, actually there was no signs of bio growth either. In hindsight I should have taken pictures.

I knew I would have growth though. You have to renew your biocides at regular intervals determined by what biocide you use of course. The reason being is that it does get used up by killing stuffs.
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post #185 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by gahz1 View Post

I said it before, copper is an effective biocide and silver is even more of one. The real magic though is when you combine the two. They will react with each other to form into a mighty power ranger style super biocide.

Any biocide in our loops needs to be safe and effective. I wont argue about silvers effectiveness, but its safety (corrosion wise) in presence of nickel is the issue. There are plenty of effective alternatives to silver that dont have a SEP of +.8 to -.25 with nickel. I have never used silver in ~9 years of watercooling, and never had algae/microbial growth, also never had any nickel fittings corrode in 6-8 months like the OP. And 5-6 years ago, when no one but Naekuh was using silver, I dont remember seeing any nickel fittings corroded at that rate.

And yeah that was my assumption regarding the vinegar + salt making at least small amounts of HCL, since some ions naturally dissociate.

EDIT: regarding your tubing, If it was just on tubing, probably plasticizer stained with dye. if you had algae for any amount of time it would be growing all in reservoir and floating everywhere, in blocks, rads, clogging pins etc. No way algae just sits on tubing. And 9/10 times I read posts of algae, I see pics that clearly are not algae, but tarnish, oxidation, plasticizer, etc.
Edited by opt33 - 3/4/12 at 12:38pm
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post #186 of 205
FYI, new testing toy..biggrin.gif
distilled1.jpg?w=614&h=566

I'll see about doing some sort of long term conductivity test with this..
    
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post #187 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post

I'll see about doing some sort of long term conductivity test with this..

That would be interesting to see thumb.gif

Wonder what just adding copper sulfate does, then what happens over time.
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post #188 of 205
I'll try that too..thumb.gif
    
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post #189 of 205

I've been reading every post in this thread since before I last posted about 2 hour 22 minutes ago, so make it 3 hours, plus most of the links referred to, make it 4 hours.

What are we supposed to use in our loops?

I know for a fact that Feser 1 is complete crap. I found that out the hard way when it was still thought of , and reviewed to be, just about perfect.

I have made a coil of pure silver wire, bought from a jewelry store and then I tested it myself.

I hesitate to use any chemical because of the Feser incident.

This thread has gone on long enough for the OP to be solved. It hasn't. Just supposition and increasing ennui.

I repeat, "What are we supposed to use in our loops?"

Once and for all, what's the answer?

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post #190 of 205
@kzinti1 You already have silver, and if you dont have any nickel plated blocks, it doesn't really matter. Even if your silver strips nickel off inside of fittings and leaves brass, only you will know, and they will still work fine, and cosmetically from outside still look fine.

Just my personal preference for copper sulfate 1 drop per liter, since used it for last 4-5 years without issue, and all my nickel fittings look ok.

There isnt a perfect answer/additive, it is pick your poison, they all have potential issues. I just wouldnt use silver if I had nickel plated waterblocks.
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