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[DailyMail] 'Forced to stand for 24 hours, suicide nets, toxin exposure and explosions': Inside the Chinese factories making iPads for Apple - Page 14

post #131 of 172
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Originally Posted by joshd View Post

This is about a HUGE technology company...

Even then... that's stretching it. It's news about suicides and working conditions, not technology news (i.e. new revolutionary processor built into our heads to become our own personal computers - no need for desktops anymore!) Besides, this isn't exactly news. This dead horse has been mauled time and time again.
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post #132 of 172
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Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

You said it wasn't possible. It is. I'd buy an American made phone for 60 bucks more, as would others. In fact sales would increase in itself enough to offset the price. But that's just it. People want to be able to rationalize the status quo. Beyond that, Chinese labor costs are only going to increase, and shipping is only going to increase. Add to all that the innovations to automation that come with a larger scale increase in American manufacturing, and it's perfectly viable. But we need to change our focus as a society instead of trying to live like 19th century imperial England. None of this was meant tersely, I'm just on my phone.
Speak for yourself - I don't think many people would pay for a phone that was $60 more expensive for the same thing as a competitor's. But, it'd be an interesting experiment.
post #133 of 172
Well, even if that's true, the rest still holds. The prices would be driven down through efficiency and they'd enjoy a greater market share from being American made. And the idea that it isn't viable doesn't hold water.
 
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post #134 of 172
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Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

You said it wasn't possible. It is. And it' not 36x more, because america's workforce is better trained. I'd buy an American made phone for 60 bucks more, as would others. In fact sales would increase in itself enough to offset the price. But that's just it. People want to be able to rationalize the status quo. Beyond that, Chinese labor costs are only going to increase, and shipping is only going to increase. Add to all that the innovations to automation that come with a larger scale increase in American manufacturing, and it's perfectly viable. But we need to change our focus as a society instead of trying to live like 19th century imperial England. None of this was meant tersely, I'm just on my phone.

Of course it is "possible" just not viable. I just don't see how it would only be $60 dollars more. All the amounts I state before only covered wages for the Chinese workers. The amount they pay Foxconn is even higher. The money has to be made up from somewhere. Not to mention the cost of actually building the facility to accommodate the quantity required. Also the fact that i guarantee that american's wouldn't work nearly as fast as the chinese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

Well, even if that's true, the rest still holds. The prices would be driven down through efficiency and they'd enjoy a greater market share from being American made. And the idea that it isn't viable doesn't hold water.

What efficiency do you speak of? You think their foxconn factory isn't efficient? So what if they had a greater market share, all that means is they would need to make more devices which in turn costs more money (more labor). I don't really see, considering the massive labor cost difference, how we would be able to produce affordable devices in the US. Unless the manufacturing went totally machine based. Which wouldn't help prices for the next few years considering the R&D cost and labor of building the fabrication plants to be entirely robot operated.
Edited by PappaSmurfsHarem - 1/27/12 at 12:06pm
     
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post #135 of 172
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Originally Posted by crashdummy35 View Post

On Topic: Stories like this should make us all grateful for what we have.

^ This.
/thread
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post #136 of 172
edit: off topic. removed for that reason.
Edited by mobius9 - 1/27/12 at 12:11pm
post #137 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

So what if they had a greater market share, all that means is they would need to make more devices which in turn costs more money (more labor).

If you don't see the logical flaw in that argument...I don't know what to say. Apply makes, let's say for argument's sake, 300 dollars profit per phone. if their profit went down to 240 dollars per phone, they would lose their profit margin PER PHONE, but generating more sales than they do now would not mean that they're LOSING money. It just means they're getting 240 additional dollars of profit for each additional phone they sell.

As for the rest of it, I feel like you've picked a stance about the necessity of exported labor, and you keep back-peddling to justify it. US manufacturing workers are more efficient than those in emerging markets. The data does exist to support this. Go look at bls.gov. I'm sure it's there, when you look at manufacturing outputs (in GDP) per hour per worker. Yes, there are additional costs to manufacturing in the US. As I said, those costs are only slightly impacted by labor costs. More relevant are health care costs, regulatory costs and taxes, materials, etc. However, there are answers to that, and it IS viable, otherwise the US wouldn't be the (if it hasn't just been surpassed by China this year) most productive manufacturer in the world. It's so viable that even in a worst case scenario where apple loses 3 billion of their pure profit from phone production, they STILL are one of the biggest companies in the world with one of the biggest profit margins in the world.

To get back on the human side of things, because urban manufacturing wages in places like China are increasing, there's this whole business conversation about building factories in rural china, away from the coast, where labor is even cheaper, so they can get even higher profit margins. They quantify and monetize the profit differentials about going in and setting up shop in these places too. From my perspective, the basic premise of having a profitable business changed in the past 30 years to something very dark, and I (yes it's an opinion) don't like it. And as I've illustrated before in this thread, I don't think it's necessary and I don't see validity in the argument that I need to "get real" or whatever other wave of the hand people want to use to justify it. Anyway, I'm done with this thread, as I don't like ranting and sounding like an angry douche. If anyone wants to discuss this further with me, I'm more than willing to do so in PMs.

[edit] - and for the record, the OP was (probably) trolling. He switched his pic to a mac logo so he wouldn't seem like he was trolling, and brought up a conversation that had already been going on in another thread. That being said, it's a big deal. It (globalization) is arguably the major humanitarian question of our time, and how we decide to deal with it will determine for a new generation what life is, and what is seen as acceptable. I, for one, simply through circumstance, only use PCs, I own an iPhone, and I don't feel like a hypocrite. It's the role of an objective person to understand the world around him/her/it and to find the truth in it. If owning an iPhone or a PC means I can't be critical of the world, there's a deeper problem that needs to be addressed.
Edited by pfunkmort - 1/27/12 at 12:56pm
 
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post #138 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

Well, even if that's true, the rest still holds. The prices would be driven down through efficiency and they'd enjoy a greater market share from being American made. And the idea that it isn't viable doesn't hold water.
If it was viable, and made the companies more profitable (as you seem to claim it would), then it would be done. But the fact of the matter is, Apple would lose money compared to manufacturing overseas if they were to bring manufacturing back to the US. There are many professionals whose job it is to analyze these sorts of things, so if it would save a company money (or bring them enough extra revenue to compensate for extra expenditures), then it would already be done. To claim that you know better than these professionals what will make a company more money is just naive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

Of course it is "possible" just not viable. I just don't see how it would only be $60 dollars more. All the amounts I state before only covered wages for the Chinese workers. The amount they pay Foxconn is even higher. The money has to be made up from somewhere. Not to mention the cost of actually building the facility to accommodate the quantity required. Also the fact that i guarantee that american's wouldn't work nearly as fast as the chinese.
What efficiency do you speak of? You think their foxconn factory isn't efficient? So what if they had a greater market share, all that means is they would need to make more devices which in turn costs more money (more labor). I don't really see, considering the massive labor cost difference, how we would be able to produce affordable devices in the US. Unless the manufacturing went totally machine based. Which wouldn't help prices for the next few years considering the R&D cost and labor of building the fabrication plants to be entirely robot operated.
Not to mention, all of those Chinese workers would be out of a job. And since they all currently choose to work at the factory, I'm sure they'd all rather have that job than nothing at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

As for the rest of it, I feel like you've picked a stance about the necessity of exported labor, and you keep back-peddling to justify it. US manufacturing workers are more efficient than those in emerging markets. The data does exist to support this. Go look at bls.gov. I'm sure it's there, when you look at manufacturing outputs (in GDP) per hour per worker. Yes, there are additional costs to manufacturing in the US. As I said, those costs are only slightly impacted by labor costs. More relevant are health care costs, regulatory costs and taxes, materials, etc. However, there are answers to that, and it IS viable, otherwise the US wouldn't be the (if it hasn't just been surpassed by China this year) most productive manufacturer in the world. It's so viable that even in a worst case scenario where apple loses 3 billion of their pure profit from phone production, they STILL are one of the biggest companies in the world with one of the biggest profit margins in the world.
US workers make more GDP per worker hour because US workers are only used for manufacturing where it is profitable to use them. For example, some sort of cutting-edge manufacturing where attention to detail and precision is key. Those sorts of items are sold for a good deal more than comparables in China, because the manufacturer's customers demand the precision, and are willing to pay for it. You have to be careful to remember the difference between causation and correlation. Just because US workers output more in GDP, does not mean they are more efficient - it just means that they manufacture certain items that customers demand be made in the US, and are willing to pay extra because of it.
post #139 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

Well, even if that's true, the rest still holds. The prices would be driven down through efficiency and they'd enjoy a greater market share from being American made. And the idea that it isn't viable doesn't hold water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

If you don't see the logical flaw in that argument...I don't know what to say. Apply makes, let's say for argument's sake, 300 dollars profit per phone. if their profit went down to 240 dollars per phone, they would lose their profit margin PER PHONE, but generating more sales than they do now would not mean that they're LOSING money. It just means they're getting 240 additional dollars of profit for each additional phone they sell.
As for the rest of it, I feel like you've picked a stance about the necessity of exported labor, and you keep back-peddling to justify it. US manufacturing workers are more efficient than those in emerging markets. The data does exist to support this. Go look at bls.gov. I'm sure it's there, when you look at manufacturing outputs (in GDP) per hour per worker. Yes, there are additional costs to manufacturing in the US. As I said, those costs are only slightly impacted by labor costs. More relevant are health care costs, regulatory costs and taxes, materials, etc. However, there are answers to that, and it IS viable, otherwise the US wouldn't be the (if it hasn't just been surpassed by China this year) most productive manufacturer in the world. It's so viable that even in a worst case scenario where apple loses 3 billion of their pure profit from phone production, they STILL are one of the biggest companies in the world with one of the biggest profit margins in the world.
To get back on the human side of things, because urban manufacturing wages in places like China are increasing, there's this whole business conversation about building factories in rural china, where labor is even cheaper, so they can get even higher profit margins. From my perspective, the basic premise of having a profitable business changed in the past 30 years to something very dark, and I (yes it's an opinion) don't like it. And as I've illustrated before in this thread, I don't think it's necessary and I don't see validity in the argument that I need to "get real" or whatever other wave of the hand people want to use to justify it. Anyway, I'm done with this thread, as I don't like ranting and sounding like an angry douche. If anyone wants to discuss this further with me, I'm more than willing to do so in PMs.
[edit] - and for the record, the OP was trolling. He switched his pic to a mac logo so he wouldn't seem like he was trolling, and brought up a conversation that had already been going on in another thread. That being said, it's a big deal. It (globalization) is arguably the major humanitarian question of our time, and how we decide to deal with it will determine for a new generation what life is, and what is seen as acceptable. I, for one, simply through circumstance, only use PCs, I own an iPhone, and I don't feel like a hypocrite. It's the role of an objective person to understand the world around him/her/it and to find the truth in it. If owning an iPhone or a PC means I can't be critical of the world, there's a deeper problem that needs to be addressed.

Sigh. My point wasn't that selling more devices wouldn't make more money. My point was that selling more devices made HERE, would cost more then selling more devices made THERE because the profit margin is much higher when the devices is manufactured in China.

I am in no way back pedaling the way things are done in China is wrong. I'm stating that companies have no incentive to move processes here. They aren't worried about what happens over there they are worried about their bottom line.

Maybe i'm not being specific enough. I am not saying it is impossible it is entirely possible to move manufacturing here. The reason is isn't feasible...
fea·si·ble/ˈfēzəbəl/
Adjective:
Possible to do easily or conveniently. - not using this definition
Likely; probable. - using this one

... so the reason it is not likely or probable is because why would Apple take a, estimated after all is said and done (cost of labor to produce same product, cost of fabrication facilities etc..., 10 billion revenue cut. When they don't have to?

Shareholders don't see the plight of the Chinese, they see $$$'s and there is more $$$'s to be made in china. That is why it is there in the first place. Even if they doubled the wages it still would be cheaper in china.
Edited by PappaSmurfsHarem - 1/27/12 at 1:13pm
     
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post #140 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trikitty View Post

Even then... that's stretching it. It's news about suicides and working conditions, not technology news (i.e. new revolutionary processor built into our heads to become our own personal computers - no need for desktops anymore!) Besides, this isn't exactly news. This dead horse has been mauled time and time again.

People only post this stuff as "news" to fuel the anti-Apple fire even though every other company does the same exact thing.
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